Mr. Koci Goes to Winnipeg

by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 3, 2011 8:00 AM EDT

I have long held that David Koci should not be an NHL player, in that he literally serves no purpose outside of fighting. The fighting itself provides minimal, if any, gains for his teams. I also made a point to call out the fact that Trevor Gillies (you know, this Trevor Gillies, getting ready for the season) seemed to accomplish an even more impossible feat, by playing worse than Koci. The long and the short of it is that I've no respect for teams that employ players that literally should not be pulling on an NHL jersey. Enter the Winnipeg Jets.

Granted, it's only a tryout* - this is what I told myself after I woke up with the night sweats, envisioning Koci loafing around the ice and laying lumber to people, taunting them into an opportunity to punch his head. Players like him are everything to the debate about fighting in the NHL. Would I rather he occupy a spot on the NHL roster, or Tim Stapleton? I would pick Stapleton in a heartbeat, a guy who has traveled the world and spent many a time on AHL teams because his place in the lineup was occupied by a Colton Orr, or an Eric Boulton.

*Incidentally, what exactly would they be looking for in this "tryout?" Let's see, can he stand on skates? Check. Does he have hands? Check.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Koci, Gillies, Orr, or Boulton as people - as I stated explicitly in the Gillies article and I'll state here again: I place blame directly on the teams that employ them. They make this path a viable one for a shot at the NHL. They are the ones who expect Koci, and Gillies, and Orr, and Boulton to go out and risk their health and well-being as well as those of their opponents. It's a price for admission, a perversion of the dream these guys no doubt had when they were kids. Would you pay that price, to risk the punches, the pain, the uncertainty, to play in the greatest hockey league on earth? Somebody will, and somebody always will if there is a team on the other end willing to pay them the money to do it. And somebody else will hire likewise, to "protect" their players from that player, regardless whether such a notion of protection appears to be dubious at best. And so on.

A boy who fantasized about scoring the big goals in the biggest games becomes the man who plays three minutes a game, 50 games of 82, and eats knuckles in garbage time. He spends most of his vibrant years tearing his body to pieces, and each time it gets harder and harder to put himself back together. Around him, beyond him, the game is played - somehow, he's managed to be in and on the outside looking in. Is this really what hockey was supposed to be all about? Where does he go from here?

Another boy, equally the dreamer, becomes the man who pushed against everything, the odds, his size, his environment, the naysayers, and reached the pinnacle of his game. He knows he's good enough to make manifest all those childhood aspirations. But he won't fight. He spends most of his vibrant years in a suitcase, on a bus, always one stop away from where he wants to be. Is this really what hockey was supposed to be all about? Where does he go from here?

They're often not chasing this dream alone, either. Their family moves with them, worries about them when they're hurt, when they fight, when they're playing. Their kids idolize their fathers because of the magnitude of their accomplishment, or the way said accomplishment makes them feel - incidentally, it's the same thing that brought these men to sacrifice so much in the first place. But maybe they wonder, as Stan Mikita's daughter did, why their father spent so little time playing the game, or why they have to move so often when their dad is one of the best players on the ice. And maybe later that night, when everybody else is asleep and the ice bags have melted, Dad drearily wonders the same thing.

This post isn't meant to be about the deaths (may they rest in peace) but a creaky old idea that could've been called out five months ago, last year, or five years before that, and I'm calling it out because of the obvious intent to bring Koci into the fold to fill this "role" tragically vacated by Rick Rypien. It's been perpetuated by teams on some whisper of tradition, profitable enterprise, or quixotic "code" - sustained with little regard for the people caught in the meat grinder of all this high-mindedness...

...held aloft by some bogus idea that somebody has to fight...

Don't be that team, Jets.

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Very, very well written.

Great article.

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by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Sep 3, 2011 11:23 AM EDT reply actions

Tremendous article

I really wonder if the “old school” thinking of needing an enforcer will be affected by the recent deaths. Detroit has done it for many years without one and they’ve usually ended up okay…

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by arby_18 on Sep 3, 2011 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

I have my doubts; I think the real turning point for teams will be, as you noted, the realization that you don’t need one with the “skill-set” of a Koci or Gillies. Hell, Detroit hasn’t just ended up okay, they’ve been one of the best teams in the NHL for quite a while. But really, they’ve had token enforcers who’ve taken the bulk of their (small amount of) fights, and only recently stopped altogether when Brad May retired after the 2009-10 season.

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 3, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Problem is, old-school guys could also take a shift. These guys can’t.

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by Doogie2K on Sep 3, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Well said...

There’s been some hand-wringing in Vancouver this off-season about the perception that “team toughness” was the reason the Canucks didn’t win it all, and for many people that means their lack of a classic enforcer on the roster. I couldn’t disagree more heartily. Tanner Glass took some heat for his lack of impact in the playoffs, yet throughout the season he was certainly more useful than Hordichuk had been in previous years — better energy, size and speed, and could fight if “necessary”, but didn’t go out looking for it.

by headspacej on Sep 3, 2011 1:46 PM EDT reply actions

Koci is actually a better Dman than forward. Try him out there.

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by Tempestuous Binary on Sep 3, 2011 2:03 PM EDT reply actions

Even as a Dman, he’s not at the NHL level. He just looks less terrible, because he’s not expected to move or handle the puck as much.

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 3, 2011 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

As fun as Koci bashing is, as an Avs fan, who has undoubtably watched more David Koci than you have… I have to disagree. Tempestuous is right, Koci makes a passable 6-7 dman. SInce there isn’t a whole lot of brawling in training camp I’m guessing the team will look to see if he can contribute in other ways, before they commit to signing him as a pure enforcer. I’m not naive, I know he’s a fighter, I know he wont put up 20, 10 or maybe even 5 goals, but the fact that he has to prove himself in camp probably means they want more than just a fighter. Beyond that, if they want him there and he wants to play. I dont see a big ideological problem here. Koci wants to play, he’s making the choice to try out and follow his wish to play hockey in whatever capacity he can. It’s likely he wont get any minutes, but when injuries piled up for the Avs, Koci saw real time as an NHL defensman playing the most meaningful and substantial minutes of his career. Why not try for that opportunity again?

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by Cole D Hamilton on Sep 4, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions

There is no room for Koci on defense in Winnipeg, depth-wise; on the other hand, there is room on the forward lines, particularly since Rick Rypien was expected to fill the enforcer role at the NHL level. I know you’re an expert NHL insider, but there’s really nothing to back up the claim that he’s an NHL-level defenseman, particularly one that should be started instead of Johnny Oduya, Mark Stuart, Arturs Kulda, Paul Postma, or even guys like Mark Flood, Derek Meech, and Brett Festerling. Especially not with a guy who played all of four games on defense, and whose team was out-shot 21 to 35 for every 60 minutes he played (1/4 of all his minutes in 2010-11 where played on defense in those four games).

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 4, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

I know you’re an expert NHL insider

the sarcasm isnt really necessary man.

obviously he wont displace anyone, but he’s good enough to serve as a healthy scratch/injury fill in. Remember too that Koci’s “defensive stats” you listed are a factor of the whole team, which was consistently one of the worst defensive teams the whole year. As someone who watched him, and take that for what you will (nothing apparently), I think he’s a fine injury fill-in (d or forward), very hard worker, and by all accounts good locker room guy. He was incredibly misused in Colorado by Sacco, and many felt that with more ice time he could have been better on the whole.

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by Cole D Hamilton on Sep 4, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Except his defensive stats were worse than everybody else on the same team.

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 4, 2011 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Well put. All that's left to be said...

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by John Fischer on Sep 3, 2011 2:13 PM EDT reply actions

WOOT!!!!

GO KOCI!!!!!

by Orgas on Sep 3, 2011 6:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Welcome to Arctic Ice Hockey, I have the funny feeling that you’re new here.

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 3, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions

Hey thanks, yes, sorry for no substance but I live fighters.

by Orgas on Sep 3, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions

YOU ARE WRONG

YOU DON’T LIVE FIGHTERS.

by JasonGregor on Sep 4, 2011 5:05 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs

like fighters, my bad lol.

by Orgas on Sep 4, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions

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LOL, good one.

by Orgas on Sep 3, 2011 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Great writing.

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by Dig Deep on Sep 6, 2011 1:02 AM EDT reply actions

Come on buddy, how can you think the 4th line wing spot would be better suited to Tim Stapelton? Stapleton is a very good AHLer who will be invaluable to St. John’s, but invisible on an NHL 4th line limited to 5 minutes a night. 10 points in 55 NHL games, with no other intangibles (such as fighting) says it all. Do you want your prospects to develop in a losing environment while the NHL team gets bullied around? The Jets simply do not have the skill to run 4 finesse/skill lines (such as Detroit) and don’t argue that Koci only has 4 points in 140+ NHL games, because he offers so much more for that roster spot.

If you want to give Stapleton a shot on the 2nd or 3rd line when injuries arise fine, but those guys on the 4th line need to offer a different look and make things happen with hard work, grit, toughness, intimidation etc when they’re only getting 5-7 minutes a night.

You don’t like fighting, I get it, but should Koci make the team and win a few scraps off the bat, walk around the MTS Centre and tell me he’s not one of the fan favorites on that team. Ask the players how they feel about his presence and I guarentee every one of them will say they like having him watch over things on the ice.

by 4thLineGoon on Sep 6, 2011 5:00 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs

Well, it's hard to argue with "hard work, grit, toughness, [AND] intimidation"

and don’t argue that Koci only has 4 points in 140+ NHL games, because he offers so much more for that roster spot

Shorthanded situations? Medical bills? 25% Fight win percentage the last 3 years? A magical anti-Matt Cooke elixir?

those guys on the 4th line need to offer a different look and make things happen with hard work, grit, toughness, intimidation etc when they’re only getting 5-7 minutes a night.

You know, I knew I was forgetting something about Koci. I totally forgot that he has grit and toughness. And you’re completely right, he does offer “a different look.”

You don’t like fighting, I get it

Well, no, you don’t, because my point is clearly stated: I don’t like teams that employ players that cannot play hockey at the NHL level. Notice I’m not implicating players like Tanner Glass, or Zenon Konopka, or Daniel Carcillo, who’ve all demonstrated at some point in their hockey careers that they could play at a high level. Just one look at Koci’s or Trevor Gillies’ careers dating back to age 17, and you can see they’ve hardly merited a position at the AHL level, let alone the NHL level. And yet they get the chance to prove themselves, while a Tim Stapleton is constantly sent packing. And it’s not just guys like Stapleton; hell, you could sign Joey Haddad for less than Koci and I’d be fine with him punching his way into a 4th line role. At least he has some inkling of upside and talent.

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 6, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions

You really can’t give credit to Koci and Gillies who have literally fought their way through juniors, the ECHL, AHL and continued to fight to stay in the NHL? There’s not one cut and dry path to the NHL, some guys are the best in the world at scoring, others are the best in the world at fighting. There’s obviously value in that and you’re not giving these guys any credit for not only staying with the pace in the changing NHL, but also for the hundreds of fights they’ve been in along the way. You think that doesn’t take character to go through that? It’s no coincidence these guys are loved by their coaches, teammates and fans alike.

You know, I knew I was forgetting something about Koci. I totally forgot that he has grit and toughness. And you’re completely right, he does offer "a different look."

Playing with grit is not the same thing as toughness. Erik Belanger lost most of his teeth 2 years ago and came back to the game. That’s toughness.That same Erik Belanger I don’t think has ever finished a hit or gotten in a fight. Zero grit.

Furthermore, if your 4 lines of ice dancers aren’t able to get any momentum going by scoring, how are you changing the tides? If you have a 4th line of Glass and Koci to go run around finishing checks and when they counter with their tough guy, take the fight to wake up the bench and the building.

You can’t undervalue the effect physical players have on skilled players. A guy 6’6" like Koci finishes a couple checks on you or your linemates, and you’re thinking twice each time you touch the puck. To me that’s a far more effective use of a fourth line spot than a skill player or a “Joey Haddad” who’s still not going to put up any points with his 5 minutes of ice time, not going to scare anyone with his physical play (including any fights he may get into with other flyweights) and certainly not provide any sense of security or protection for his team. Maybe he’ll answer the bell and get throttled by a real fighter and get a nice stick tap for his efforts but he’s not a deterrent and who’s gonna sacrifice themself the next time someone gets cheap shotted or run?

by 4thLineGoon on Sep 7, 2011 11:54 AM EDT reply actions

I can guarantee you have absolutely zero evidence that David Koci is “staying with the pace” of the NHL. Just like you have zero evidence that fighting is a deterrent to targeting the top players on your team.

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 7, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions

You don’t have to prove your theories, like that fighting does not deter. Why should we? You’re the anarchist in this case, attacking a common player type in the NHL.

by Orgas on Sep 12, 2011 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

You’re the anarchist in this case, attacking a common player type in the NHL.

Huh?

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 13, 2011 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions

So you don’t like what I said and you give me a warning? You have a long history of hating this player when teams obviously don’t

Maybe it’s because he’s getting paid a half a million dollars a year while you’re not. You try to make people who disagree with you prove their theories [how does it deter bla bla] but you don’t feel you have to defend or prove your own. That’s the hypocrisy, ban me and call me a troll if you want, but you’re the real troll, getting worked up over 3 minutes a game.

by Orgas on Sep 14, 2011 12:44 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Congrats

You linked to an article I linked myself at the beginning. I linked articles showing the lack of “boost” from fighting, too; the proof of fighting not being a deterrent is in the pudding…top players are still being targeted regardless of the presence of Deryk Engelland and Arron Asham (Sidney Crosby), Milan Lucic and Shawn Thornton (Nathan Horton), Travis Moen and Ryan White (Max Pacioretty), Ben Eager and Adam Burish (Martin Havlat), Milan Lucic and Shawn Thornton again (Marc Savard), John Erskine (Mike Green), Aaron Voros, Sean Avery and Brian Boyle (Marian Gaborik), Milan Lucic and Shawn Thornton, third time (Patrice Bergeron)…; the undeniable proof that it’s worth more to a team to have a player who can play hockey at the NHL level on the 4th line than a guy who’s supposed value, then, doesn’t show up anywhere except NHL 12 and in the unverified gushings of antiquated commentators who don’t want to show their work. So now that I’ve done all you requested, give me one shred of evidence for your side. Why is it worth it for a team in the salary cap era to pay a player to only be able to play three minutes of a game so they can generate zero offense, take dumb penalties, and roam the ice trying to instigate a fight? Where’s the evidence of a boost (I proposed the counter-evidence)? Where’s the evidence that it’s a deterrent (we have countless examples of top players being targeted, aka not being protected)?

Let’s be clear: Koci is one example. I’m not just against Koci, I’m against any player that cannot demonstrate the ability to play HOCKEY at the NHL level. That means Trevor Gillies, Jesse Boulerice, Andrew Peters, and others are in this too. You know, the guys who can’t seem to stick on one team, or in the NHL, because GMs don’t really agree with you either. Koci’s been on 4 teams in 5 years…if he was really good, he would be getting real contracts.

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 14, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions

Here’s the one link you posted that I hadn’t (it was deleted b/c it was a “reply message” to the links I had already included in the article):
http://bettmansnightmare.blogspot.com/2010/06/why.html

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 14, 2011 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions

P.S.

You’re partly right about me not liking Koci getting paid a half million dollars, except the part where I’d be jealous (I don’t think you know me well enough to make that assumption). What he’s doing is not worth half a million dollars to a team.

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Sep 14, 2011 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions