Questionnaire for Montreal believers
1. Jaroslav Halak has a .933 save percentage in the playoffs so far. If he keeps that up, it would make him the best goaltender since the NHL started recording shots in 1983. Is Halak really that good?
a. Halak is the next big-game goaltender.
b. The system is suited to the players and has proven it works, the unification aspect comes in, bonds the team, and makes it greater than the sum of its parts.
c. Stop pissing on my parade, Gabe
d. Montreal's luck is bound to turn.
2. Montreal's strategy seems to be to let the other team come in to their end and take a lot of shots. Do we really expect them to keep winning?
a. Of course. Halak is the next big-game goaltender.
b. The system is suited to the players and has proven it works, the unification aspect comes in, bonds the team, and makes it greater than the sum of its parts.
c. Stop pissing on my parade, Gabe
d. Montreal's luck is bound to turn.
3. Jaroslav Halak is the next big-game goaltender. So why was he benched against Washington? Why didn't the Czechs Slovaks the team with Chara on it win in the Olympics? Why didn't Montreal secure a better playoff spot earlier in the season?
a. Shut the fuck up. Halak is the next big-game goaltender.
b. The system is suited to the players and has proven it works, the unification aspect comes in, bonds the team, and makes it greater than the sum of its parts.
c. Stop pissing on my parade, Gabe
d. Montreal's luck is bound to turn.
If you answered A or B to three questions, well, I don't know what to tell you. Best to consult the magic 8-ball going forward. If you answered C, then you're a desperate Habs fan, but at least we're on the same page. D was the correct answer to all three questions.
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Two small points
1) J-S Giguere had a Sv% of .945 in the 2003 playoffs
2) Jaroslav Halak is a Slovak
Not wanting to spoil your fun. :)
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
Right, but a goalie doesn’t have to have .933 true talent to produce a .933 save percentage in a single postseason. And if luck has no memory, it doesn’t really matter that he’s been lucky so far, just as the next coin flip still has the same probability even the previous 5 flips were all heads.
by SJKel on May 13, 2010 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you’re saying he’s not a hot goalie?
Anyways, the odds of him continuing what he’s done for the last 10 games are very low.
I’m saying that he is a hot goalie and his current .933 is partly good luck. But he does look like he’s a skilled goaltending by the difficulty of saves he’s made, so it would not be a surprise if he ends up being among the best true talent goalies once he has played more and we have gathered more data. If Giguere was able to achieve .945 over the 2003 playoffs has happened before (and he is not a .945 true talent goalie), then Halak having .933 for the rest of this year’s playoffs is more likely than something that has already happened.
I agree that Montreal's luck is bound to change
but does that mean it will necessarily happen this season?
I'd be more inclined to believe...
Cammalleri’s shooting percentage takes a bigger dive then halak’s sv%
random question
I was just wondering if there is a correlation between the number of shots a goalie faces over the course of a game and his save percentage. In other words, does a goalie who faces 17 shots in a game have a lower save percentage then one who faces 42 shots.
by M F on May 13, 2010 12:02 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yes, very much so. A goalie will face a lot of shots because he saves a lot of shots – ie – if he keeps his team up by 1, the other team will take a lot of shots trying to tie the game.
This implies that teams adopt a sub-optimal goal scoring strategy when behind.
If a team’s best chance to score the most goals is to take as many shots as possible, then they would want to do that in all situations (at least insofar as it doesn’t sacrifice defense), whether behind, tied or ahead. Is there any evidence that the greater number of shots taken when behind in a game compensates for the lower shooting% and therefore results in a greater amount of expected goals? It sounds like the opposite is true. Teams that are behind seem to adopt a less effective offensive strategy thereby decreasing their chance of coming back. Of course the defensive strategy of the leading team plays a huge role too so it may be impossible to determine which team is responsible for this effect, but what is the goal scoring rate when behind as compared to when tied or ahead?
I wonder if this is why people count those “scoring chance” things, to do something silly like categorically disprove that shot quality has a significant impact on the game?
Hmmm…
I’m sure the ratio between Fenwick number and scoring chances never fluctuates ever in a small sample size. That might cause crazy shit like changes in shooting percentage over said smaller samples, and we know that never happens.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
I’m sure the ratio between Fenwick number and scoring chances never fluctuates ever in a small sample size
I’m glad you’re sure of that. But did you also know that the ratio of chances to whatever-shot-total doesn’t demonstrate much repeatability over handfuls of games?
I figured that out on my own, thanks. (Incidentally, I chose Fenwick because it correlated the closest with chances — which makes sense, since blocked shots are never scoring chances.)
My point was, perhaps you should be a bit more careful of word choice when making definitive statements, as you are so frequently wont to do. Over the course of a season, sure, you’re right. Over the course of a handful of games, a playoff series, maybe even a playoff run? I’m glad you can be so confident it’s irrelevant; I’m not. I mean, we only see crazy shit like this for individual players nearly every Goddamned year.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
I mean, we only see crazy shit like this for individual players nearly every Goddamned year.
Yeah, but the real test Doog, is do we see it two years in a row.
This thing regarding Fenwick, well it makes intuitive sense that Fenwick correlates with scoring chances because we’ve decided not to count blocked shots, however that’s a conscious decision made by the scoring chance counters. In any case, when dealing with the broad strokes all the measures are near-enough-as, we’re not trying to pick a needle from a haystack after all.
Yes, obviously. My whole SC:Fenwick thing was to illustrate shot quality: if you get more scoring chances for the same Fenwick, it stands to reason you’re getting a higher number of high-percentage shots, since that’s the whole basis for the scoring chance, and thus a higher “shot quality.” It evens out over the course of a season, at least at the team level, but in the small samples, and for individuals having absurd shooting-percentage seasons one way or the other, I would think that it influences player and team shooting percentage and the fluctuations thereof. I don’t think anyone’s gone through yet and tried to line up changes in number of scoring chances per ice time (or percentage of scoring chances to Fenwick, or whatever metric you’d like) with changes in shooting percentage over five- or ten-game samples, but I bet there’d be a good deal of overlap. Not totally — there’s still shit-happens and so on — but I’d be surprised if there was absolutely nothing there.
That’s all I was saying. You were making a categorical statement about the broad strokes at the expense of the small-sample stuff that gets people’s attention this time of year, without being clear that you had done so. Because you’re usually an arrogant prick when you make such statements, I felt inclined to take a poke, instead of assuming you meant what you meant.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Even if it balances out, the team that’s behind wants to generate a high event count, to increase the number of rolls of the dice they get to tie the game up. That this also increases the odds of a goal against — perhaps more so than goals for — is unfortunate, but the tradeoff is worth it; the team that’s trailing can’t win if the score stays tied, so they try to make something happen, hoping it’ll go their way. The ultimate expression of this is pulling the goalie when down by one; that signficiantly bumps up the likelihood of a goal by either side, and while the chance of a goal against against increases far more than that of a goal for, it’s a tradeoff worth doing because the status quo buys them nothing.
Conversely, it’s in the interest of the team that’s ahead to lower the number of events, to increase the odds that the score stays tied.
You can illustrate it with dice rolling. Suppose that you’re trailing by one and you’re given the option of rolling one to three dice, and you score a goal on a 6 and you get scored on on a 1. If you roll one die, you have a 16% chance of tying the game up. If you roll three, your odds of getting more goals for than against are much higher (I’m counting 64/216, but I’m not trusting my math lately). Of course, the odds that you get outscored increase by the same amount, but you don’t get any brownie points for losing by 1 rather than 2.
You don’t increase your expected goal differential (GF – GA), so one strategy would not be “more optimal than the other” if the score was tied. But you do reduce the odds of neither team getting the upper hand, and if you’re trailing that’s a good thing for you.
Hey Gabe
Nice knowing ya. ;)
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too."
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
because you — wait, you’re still alive??!
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too."
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
by chiblackhawks on May 13, 2010 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions
There were two teams in the east that could ostensibly run power versus power against Chicago or San Jose. Both are gone. A five game cup finals will surprise me.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
San Jose takes a 3-0 series lead into game four against Philly and is ahead 4-1 with ten minutes to go in the third period
but ultimately loses in OT of game seven on a goal by ex-Shark Matt Carle.
Wait till this year.
I agree. It will probably hold for at least one more round. Neither Boston nor Philly is going to bring the house in the ECF.
It’s going to be a brutal awakening for whichever sacrificial lamb makes it to the finals to face one of SJ or CHI.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on May 13, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The biggest obstacle to San Jose or Chicago winning the Stanley Cup will be keeping a straight face.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on May 13, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
the way it is right now
I’ll be hard-pressed to keep a straight face anyway. If somebody had told me at the beginning of the season that the Stanley Cup finals would be down to Chicago (61), Boston (72), Philly (75), Montreal (93), and San Jose (never), I would have laughed in your face and said, “Yeah right, but you’re forgetting Toronto.”
But when it was suggested to him that Toews v. Kane seems likely to become a sidebar to every future international hockey tournament, he smiled and said: "I'd like us to win something together, too."
(Tweets @ChiBlackhawks and blogs at Blackhawks Down Low.)
by chiblackhawks on May 13, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Why you're wrong.
Ha. Well the answers to those questions are easy: A) The reason Halak’s s% is so high is because the opposing teams are taking low percentage shots. Lots of them. Tons. The reason they’re doing this are two fold: 1 – They were both offensively minded teams that are designed to bombard and 2 – all their better angle shots were blocked. Halak … See Moredoesn’t have a .933 because he’s the reincarnation of Roy. He has a .933 because the team is playing well defensively against teams that take a lot of shots. And he’s a pretty good goaltender.
B) That is not their strategy. However it’s a hard thing to avoid when you play against the Cros and Ovies of the world. No one expects them to keep winning. That’s why they’re underdogs. If everyone had expected them to win so far this conversation wouldn’t be happening.
C) Yes Halak was benched in the first round because he played a bad game. Martin Brodeur was benched in the Olypics. By this reasoning he’s not a big game goaltender either. The reason the Slovaks didn’t win the Gold was because their team was shallow in comparison to Canada and the US due to a far smaller population and way less money for training. Not because their goaltending was bad. The team with the best goalie doesn’t always win which is why Buffalo’s not winning the cup this year.
In closing: being outplayed, by the definition presented, is certainly part of the equation it doesn’t represent many aspects of the game. The intangibles. Blocking the lines of traffic. Positioning. Mental toughness. Heart. And games aren’t won by puck possession and celebrity. Their won by goals. The Montreal Canadiens didn’t just beat the mighty Washington Capitals. They beat them four times. They didn’t just beat Crosby and the Pens once. They did it again and again and again. Crosby and Ovie had plenty of second and third and fourth chances to prove their team was the better team and I’m afraid we can’t give them any more. They may be better at puck possession, but they’re worse at winning hockey games.
There was epic music playing while I said that, in case you missed it…
by Felix the Catastrophe on May 13, 2010 3:45 AM EDT reply actions
Montreal also lost six of 14 games, not exactly that much better at "winning"
Ah, the fabled intangibles and heart. The two single most overused and overrated words in sports. Well, that and the New York Yankees.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
by bkblades on May 13, 2010 3:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Crosby and Ovie are worse at winning hockey games, despite the Canadiens still being tied for last in wins out of the 8 Eastern Conference playoff teams when including the regular season… having had the opportunity to win four more games than four of those teams. OK. That’s all about mental toughness, baby!
There was epic music playing while I said that, in case you missed it…
Are we talking kick-ass like Ride of the Valkyries or more fruity like Requiem for a Dream?
In any case, in the words of Dwight Schrute: “Ooh. I love repartee. Usually means there’s a battle scene coming”.
Here’s what I heard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4
Congratulations.
This is the weirdest thing I have seen all week.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I can’t tell if he was being serious or taking the piss.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Jaroslav Halak has a .933 save percentage in the playoffs so far.
Regress to the mean!
Regress to the mean!
Regress to the mean!
Regress to the mean!
Regress to the mean!
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Well...
(1) Halak’s career save percentage is 92%. An extra goal for every 100 shots isn’t necessarily going to kill them – it wouldn’t have last night. Let him regress to the mean.
(2) If they get an early two goal lead, then yes, getting out shot every game might just work out for them. If they don’t, and they still get badly outshot, well, then, yeah, they’re going to have trouble.
(3) What, fourth isn’t good enough for ya? They beat Sweden and Russia.
And against Boston or Philly you have to concede the Habs’ chances can’t be much worse than 50/50. Those aren’t good teams either. None of the three will win the Cup.
I've been looking at the sky
1) Halak’s save pct vs Washington was .939. Against Pit, it was .927. So will it be .915 in the next round? That’s bad news.
2) Habs get brutally outshot when the game is tied (2nd worst series since the lockout). When they’re down, it’s even worse.
3) Yeah, I guess he didn’t have the teammates…
1) After all you’ve said about luck and goaltending, why would you extrapolate a trend? I’m guessing you’re joking – not that any of .915, .920 or .925 would be surprising based on his history.
2) Last night I’m pretty sure they outshot Pittsburgh during the 30 seconds that the game was tied… Yeah, the numbers are bad, and I’d be shocked if they beat San Jose or Chicago this way. Against the Bruins or especially the Flyers, however, there’s no reason to believe their possession numbers won’t improve.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on May 13, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Giguere had a .945 save percentage the year he won the Conn Smythe. How is Halak’s .933 better than that?
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
Sigh… I see this was already covered. Next time, should read the comments.
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by James Mirtle on May 13, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Why didn’t Montreal secure a better playoff spot earlier in the season?
They inexplicably played Price half the year?
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Great won-loss record. Montreal with Halak in goal was a 100+ point pace team.
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by James Mirtle on May 13, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
It wasn’t just Halak. It was also, and perhaps mainly, injuries. Markov and Gionta notably in the first half of the season— that’s almost 10 million on the shelf for an extended period, right there. The CHIP numbers for the Habs were among the leaders in the league, alongside teams such as Edmonton and Detroit.
Plus there’s the who-knows-how-much-it-really-matters question of assembling a team with 10 new faces in key roles and a new coach and creating some sort of team out of that. Timo Seppa likes to point out things like how Montreal was 23-15-9 in the last stretch of the season, with Halak taking over the #1 role and Markov returned from injury — and Cammalleri missing for a significant chunk of that, too. Who knows if that would’ve extended to a full season, but that’s a pretty strong pace (96 points) over half a season — and their OT record over that stretch was perfectly ordinary, too.
Better numbers than Price all around, too, especially since mid-December.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
by James Mirtle on May 13, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Mid-December? So like, let’s say 20 starts each (don’t have the exact number of starts), around say 600 shots, and at this sample size probably there are different EV/PK splits for the shots.
That’s nothing, a single fluke goal against or lucky save and SV% will move by almost 2 points either way.
And if the starts weren’t split 20/20 then the comparison is even weaker, one guy has just about no data on him.
And of course GAA’s useless, shutouts are useless, W-L’s useless… how else did you differentiate that Halak was so much better than Price using data from mid-December?
His save percentage is .012 higher than Price this year, and higher significantly in their careers. He’s been excellent at the Olympics and in this postseason. He was a .925+ goalie in the AHL three years in a row. That says enough to me.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
by James Mirtle on May 13, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Gabe broke it down the other week, over something like 3000 (IIRC?) EV shots and the difference was about 7 points.
Which is suggestive, but not conclusive. And in any case you’re not making that argument, you’re constructing this whole other one with win totals and mid-December-to-now play. And you’re not even breaking it down by EV/PK so what’s the point?
People often forget that Montreal was an outshooting team to start the season, and was done in by erratic goaltending from both guys — and that Price stabilized first. At that point in December Price was the better goalie.
The gap between the two guys’ goaltending was real, but nowhere near what the difference in W-L suggests.
That would also indicate Halak’s been on a bit of a roll for close to five months.
His AHL numbers say to me he could be an elite goaltender who should have been in the No. 1 role far earlier.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
by James Mirtle on May 13, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
The tricky part is that Price ultimately is a starter-caliber goaltender too. He couldn’t buy a win because the team would inexplicably score less in front of him (we’re talking Pittsburgh vs. Boston in terms of how much less here, and much of the difference happening on the PP for some ungodly reason) but he wasn’t all that much worse than Halak, especially early.
To wit, the Habs have now played two series and there’s a case to be made that out of the six goaltenders involved Montreal had the two best ones.
To wit, the Habs have now played two series and there’s a case to be made that out of the six goaltenders involved Montreal had the two best ones.
Yeah. That might be the case.
You could probably also argue that of the 3 “top forwards” that Montreal had the worst one in terms of finishing ability. And yet they ended up with the guy with the most goals.
Smells like luck to me!
Obsess much?
I was making that point in an attempt to illustrate why Price was played so much instead of Halak. My point was that Price was not an unworthy goaltender and would have been the starter on some pretty good teams.
The cute/unfortunate/awfully frustrating thing about all of this is that the Canadiens will probably win their series against the Bruins or Flyers 40-45% of the time, maybe more. As badly as they have been dominated, Montreal gets treated to an abnormally awful ECF opponent.
That’s karmic payback for having drawn the East’s 2 best teams in a row (granted, finishing 8th kinda guarantees that for the first round, but come on, NJ AND Buff both getting eliminated so Mtl draws Pitt in the second? That’s bad luck).
Is it really? If you’d asked me before the playoffs, I’d have taken both those teams over Jersey. Fuckers have owned Montreal since the mid-90s.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
I think it would be a popular answer, certainly. Though I’m not sure it’s demonstrably different than C.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Where’s the “all of the above” option?
Bettman's Nightmare: We See a Good Bettman/Fans Metaphor When We See One, and Frankly, Lane Smith Was Too Hard on Emilio Estevez When He Was A Kid.
http://bettmansnightmare.blogspot.com/
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