"On Corsi and Faceoffs" Rebuttal
Tom Benjamin over at Canucks Corner decided to take a swipe at the stats crowd yesterday, and usually I leave the rebuttals to Gabe but this one is relatively easy.
The first sentence of his blog post: "I'm fairly skeptical of much of the statistical analysis being kicked around these days." So you'll have an idea where this is going. Basically, Benjamin feels Corsi ignores team context and that is a big strike against it. An appropriate conclusion, if you're Tom Benjamin and you ignore the fact that hockey statisticians have spent years developing a number of measures to adjust for and otherwise acknowledge team context. Other useless critiques, such as "the sample size is always too small" and "explanations can't compensate for a number that ranks Ryane Clowe as one of the best players in the league" are pretty typical of what we've been hearing. Typical as in assuming we're morons throwing around imaginary numbers with little thought.
Of all people, statisticians are aware of their sample size; a statistician that attempts to make definitive, over-arching statements with small samples is what you would call a bad statistician. Corsi wasn't established as a valuable statistic with a small sample size; it's been vetted and adopted by some of the best hockey statisticians out there, including Gabe, Tom Awad (who used it to develop his Delta metric), JLikens, Vic Ferrari, Derek Zona, Jonathan Willis, Rob Vollman, and countless others for whom I've not the energy to find examples. More than anything, what these non-moronic people have found is that Corsi needs to be given context, as who you face and who you play with can affect your Corsi outcome. This is precisely why so much attention was paid to the Manny Malhotra/Ryan Kesler deployment last year; it was a great move, because both players could handle tough assignments, but the signing of Malhotra added a Corsi-proven centre to take the load off Kesler's shoulders. When I'd say Malhotra is one of the best defensive forwards in the game, and somebody said, "But look, he only managed a +9 on a team with an excellent goal-differential", I could respond that he had tough assignments and I could provide solid evidence if the discussion needed to go further. Now, if you're not concerned with backing up your statements, or if you're so full of yourself that you assume people will view your opinion as an expert opinion not to be questioned, then by all means make definitive statements based on your observation alone (which, incidentally, is a VERY SMALL SAMPLE SIZE).
For the rest of us, who might feel that a statement needs a bit more verification than "My card reads 'Hockey Expert,'" we both observe and seek to verify those observations with more-objective data. We used Corsi because study after study came back telling us that shot-based metrics reveal the most about an individual player's skill offensively and defensively, and it helps us build the context that Tom Benjamin so desperately seeks.
To the second point about Ryane Clowe: it's a common misconception that, because Clowe had a great Corsi performance last year, a Corsi advocate would call him the "second best player." Well, that's true if we were willing to ignore the Corsi-based context, which says that he faced average competition and played on a line with the best possible Sharks forwards, but we wouldn't do that. Regardless, to call someone the "second best player" alludes to talent, whereas to call Clowe's 2010-11 as the "second-best player performance" would be more accurate. We need a bit more of a sample from Clowe before we start calling him anything more. The funny thing is that Benjamin seems to be fighting himself with this example, as he previously felt that Corsi does not provide enough information about a player, yet he can't see how a player such as Clowe could be so valuable based on the boxcar statistics that he likely relies upon (plus the observations he's made). He wouldn't be able to understand why Gabe would shower Samuel Pahlsson with such praise (read the last paragraph), either. Well, maybe there's somebody here who needs a bit more information.
P.S. He likes Tyler Dellow's work on faceoffs, apparently, which he prefaces by saying that he's already reached a similar conclusion but according to him that's not why he likes the post. Is that like when a white person says they have one African American friend?
P.P.S. Benjamin, like SI's Brian Cazeneuve before him (who was rebutted by another advocate of Corsi, Kent Wilson), believes very strongly in the word "puck possesion" "puck position." If only we could find a metric to help define it...
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Your second post-script is to me the most important part of the article, because only the most intractable and willfully ignorant hockey fan would argue that puck possession isn’t hugely important. Regardless, detractors of Corsi always find a way to denigrate any of its findings. Here are some of the most common:
A: ‘It doesn’t measure who wins ‘puck battles’
B: ‘It doesn’t measure the breakout pass’
C: ’There’s a guy on [insert my team] who has terrible shot selection and always misses the net’
D: ‘Why are we counting blocked shots, anyway’
What’s funny is that all of these are legitimate criticisms – Corsi is far from perfect. (D always gets me, I’m a Fenwick supporter). And there’s still work to be done regarding on-ice shooting percentage and save percentage (the two biggest FA signings of the past two summers, Ilya Kovalchuk and Brad Richards, are both interesting cases). Sometimes these people will even posit a super-stat that measures puck battles and breakout passes and be like, ‘yeah, if they ever came out with that, I’d get behind it.’ But in general, at the heart of their criticisms is: ‘I trust what I see, and I don’t trust what I can’t see’.
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Cherry popped immediately to mind
Don Cherry assumed that terrible Corsi = terrible player (Ryan Johnson).
Tom Benjamin assumed that great Corsi = great player (Ryan Clowe).
Stop doing that!
Like all statistics, Corsi is contextual. (Or was Rob Brown one of the greatest goal scorers in history?) I admit Corsi takes a little bit more effort to understand and apply properly, but it’s worth the trouble.
Speaking of small sample size, there are over 11 Corsi events for every goal – that’s an easy way to improve the reliability of your data over short periods of time.
Jeff Ma postulated in The House Advantage that part of the reason people get such a hate on for stats-based analysis is that some stats-supporters tend to use them in such absolute terms with no consideration of context. Corsi/Ozone%/QC/QT/PDO etc are not absolute black-and-white tools, but they are tools, nonetheless. To dismiss such measures out-of-hand smacks of the same ignorance, arrogance, and foolhardiness as relying on them as magic bullets. They’re a tool in the tool box, and the best analysis comes from using all of the tools together, balanced and tempered by one another.
by ranford4life on Jul 18, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Context
One thing I’ve been doing lately is creating split statistics. “Fenwick events for” and “Fenwick events against” are two completely different things because they happen at opposite ends. Some players are more accustomed to defensive play but their overall Fenwick number doesn’t show it.
This shows us who is more valuable at offense and more valuable at defense.
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I also look at this at times, but you do have to be cautious with it.
For one, scorer bias definitely plays in — a player on a team whose scorer tends to count lots of things as missed shots will appear to be better at offense and worse at defense than an identical player on a team whose scorer is picky about counting missed shots.
For another, it’s not always easy to separate offense and defense in this way, because retaining possession of the puck is an offensive skill that also happens to limit shots against.
None of which means that you can’t do this, just that it needs to be done carefully. Comparing a player’s on-ice and off-ice numbers and/or using just road games will help eliminate the scorer bias. The second part is tougher, but can be accounted for — this is one of the really nice things we get out of tracking zone entries, as separating zone entry count from shots per offensive zone entry separates out the defensive work in your own end from the ability to keep the team from getting the puck and bringing it into your end.
?
He likes Tyler Dellow’s work on faceoffs, apparently, which he prefaces by saying that he’s already reached a similar conclusion but according to him that’s not why he likes the post. Is that like when a white person says they have one African American friend?
I keep reading this and it still doesn’t make sense.
Tyler Dellow, a stats guy. The one he likes that show he’s tolerant, if only those other stats guys would be like Tyler. Of course, Tyler is fine with Corsi, too, but it’s when he deals with something Benjamin understands and believes to be worthwhile that he mentions him.
I'd like to let all those NHL teams that passed me up in 2002 know that yes, I have managed to fill out my frame.
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Jul 18, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Stats, they are all part of analysis...
They aren’t the whole thing, but anything that can help to quantify what you are seeing is good IMO. The crazy part is anybody who thinks one set of numbers can tell them everything. There is no perfect analysis or prediction method, just a number of tools you can use to get there…..
Puck possession
To be fair to Tom, I think you may have misread (judging by your last point); he’s actually arguing against the importance of so-called puck possession as he has in the past.
Puck position or puck possession, either one will make itself manifest in shot-based metrics.
I'd like to let all those NHL teams that passed me up in 2002 know that yes, I have managed to fill out my frame.
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Jul 18, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
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To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.
by red army line on Jul 18, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
But it’s a fair point, and I made the adjustment above.
I'd like to let all those NHL teams that passed me up in 2002 know that yes, I have managed to fill out my frame.
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Jul 18, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
There you go again, picking fights with non-stats people. I would never stoop that low ;)
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by Jonathan Willis on Jul 19, 2011 12:02 AM EDT reply actions

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