The League of Extraordinary Statisticians: Size
I'm not ashamed to say that I'm about 5'8" soaking wet (haha), and that size did me no favours with scouts while playing defenseman in high school. A good buddy of mine was scouted despite being 5'5", but he was an exceptional forward (comparable, if not better than, Joe Pavelski in our conference at the time). Whatever the circumstance, it was no secret to us that our size would likely step in the way of our future in hockey. I'm not bitter, but it does lead me to this topic which still lingers years after Eric Lindros came along and convinced every GM in hockey that he needed one of his own.
Size certainly is the question today, when we acknowledge that the game is no longer the war of attrition that it was in the mid- to late-1990s and guys like Martin St. Louis and Brian Gionta challenge what we think is possible for smaller players in a physical league. James Mirtle had an interesting article earlier this year on the larger size of NHL goaltenders compared to previous seasons, and this seems as good of a time as any to see what the LOES had to say about the advantages or disadvantages of larger players.
The question for this week: Does size matter in today's NHL?
Yes, size does matter, but not in the way you might think. Check out some of Iain Fyffe's research, which demonstrated the slight bias in the NHL Entry Draft based on size - with a good scouting staff you can get some real pint-sized gems with later picks. Fundamentally the only way to win in the salary cap era is to sign players at discount rates, because the market has undervalued them, and that appears to be the case with smaller players.
Another undervalued skill is the ability to draw more penalties than you take, and though I haven't completed a study proving this, check out those who consistently lead the league in this department - they're generally smaller guys like Martin St. Louis. NHL officials appears to look at size differentials between players when decided whether to put the whistle to their lips. So size does matter when building a team - but you want small!- Rob Vollman, Hockey Prospectus
All you need to know to answer yes to this question is that the average NHL aged male in Canada and the US is 5'9" or 5'10" and the average player in the NHL is 6'1" to 6'2". That is about four inches above the average in the population.In fact, the only significant player I can find on a quick search through the NHL Guide and Record Book who is shorter than 5'9" (which is essentially average in the North American male population) is Steve Sullivan (5'8"). I could attempt to present the same kind of numbers regarding weight except they don't work out as well because an NHL player is muscular and the average male population is fat.
That isn't to say that a smaller player cannot make it in the NHL, but it is rare. The last significant player who was significantly shorter than average was Theo Fleury who was listed at 5'6". His prime in the NHL was over ten years ago. I imagine another successful player of Fleury's size might be out there in the future, but they are rare. However there are several current players in the NHL who qualify as successful NHLers who are bigger than average in the general population.- Greg Ballentine, The Puck Stops Here at Kukla's Korner
The idealistic answer is "of course not." If you have the talent, that talent will bear itself out over the development of the player, and the cream will rise to the top. But I still think that "you can't teach size" is a common crutch/excuse for coaches and scouts, and we all know players whose official height is only true with their skates on. I'm not sure the bias is just in the NHL, but throughout the developmental pipeline.
I know an owner of a USHL team that insists that undersized defensemen (< 6-0) and forwards (< 5-10) are less likely to make it to the NHL via the CHL than through the NCAA pipeline, and this is something that's on my short list of things to study. One could argue, however, that if true this is more a function of the respective player pools of both countries. In Canada, the better/larger athletes propagate to hockey, whereas in the USA they usually go to other sports (Rams QB and Heisman Trophy winner Sam Bradford played both hockey and football until high school). I'd love to see the football players at my high school here in Texas playing hockey, but I doubt we'll be seeing any 6-5/250 Tongans performing a pregame Haka in the NHL anytime soon.
That said, the statistics bear out the obvious trend of players getting larger. NHL defensemen today average 6-1.75 and 208.6 pounds whereas twenty years ago they were about an inch shorter and over ten pounds lighter, and two inches and twenty pounds smaller in the last season of the Original Six era. Forwards today average 6-0.8/201. They were an inch and a quarter and thirteen pounds lighter twenty years ago, and were over an inch and a half and about twenty pounds lighter in 1966-67. Goalies today are huge compared to twenty years ago, and I'm not just talking equipment. Goalies have gone from 5-10.5/177.5 to 6-1.7/197, and there are only a couple of players around the average size of twenty years ago.- Marc Foster, Hockey Prospectus
All other things being equal...a taller goalie is advantaged over a smaller one as he covers more of the net. A bigger defender protects more turf. A hulky forward is stronger on the puck. Size is a dominating factor.
If you draft a big guy who disappoints with his skill game, he can still play a role for you. But draft a skill guy who fails to develop and he has no second dimension on which to base a career. So there is a natural selection bias towards size.
But other things are rarely equal. Smaller usually means more nimble. Smaller usually means faster. Smaller players, to succeed, have been forced to become skill players. So there is usually a size/skill trade-off. The NHL has been working to give the skill player more room and relative value. But size will always matter - big time.
- Alan Ryder, Hockey Analytics
Yes.
Size in a player is an asset, just like any tool is be it speed, hand-eye coordination, lower body strength etc. The thing with the size debate is I hate when it becomes too extreme and people draw a line on each side. Those sides being things like a player has to be X tall with Y weight as a minimum standard and the other side being, "Well look at Martin St. Louis and all the other small players."
Physical assets do help players, and David Staples has shown there are plenty of things in the physical game that contribute to a team’s success that don’t get recorded by the NHL. However the flip side of that is not all big players are good physical players, while some small players like say Brian Gionta can be an asset in the physical game.
There is no straight-forward answer to how valuable size is, but it definitely is valuable, and players can definitely get away with poor size if their other tools are of high quality. It’s all part of the package of many things that makes up a player and has to be evaluated as such.
- Corey Pronman, Hockey Prospectus
Though I couldn't track him down for this LOES, Iain Fyffe has done at least one good article that I've seen on the topic (and definitely worth reading).
I appreciate Rob's care for the little people. In all honesty, though, I think he raises an interesting point about markets in today's salary cap...bigger players likely fetch more money and minutes from NHL teams, making the signing of more physically-gifted small players economical. Their success would still be contingent (as per the other responses) on being talented enough to play physical or produce while avoiding the physical element. It certainly says something when guys like P.A. Parenteau and Andrew Ebbett, capable NHL players, have struggled to get time at the highest level.
In general, a league with greater parity puts a premium on smaller advantages, and size can often be that advantage. Bigger players have the edge in blocking shots and disrupting passes and stickhandling; if they use their size effectively, they can also gain or maintain puck possession and get scoring chances in front of the net. Zdeno Chara can use his size to hit the puck 563 miles per hour. And so on.
It's worth discussing how size might manifest itself in the data; what other advantages to being larger are we missing? What about potential advantages to being smaller...maybe in terms of drawing penalties, as Rob suggests? Any hypotheses on how a team completely stocked with current NHL players under 6'0" would fare? Can we slap sensors on Theo Fleury and figure out how he did it?
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Players 5'8" and under
5’8" Francis Bouillon, Sergei Samsonov, Chris Conner, Martin St. Louis, Linus Klasen, Steve Sullivan
5’7" Stephen Gionta, David Desharmais, Brett Sterling, Mats Zuccarello, Brian Gionta
5’5" Nathan Gerbe
Shortest goalies are 5’10" (Chris Osgood, Richard Bachman, Jhonas Enroth)
(Go to NHL.com, select Stats/Individuals, then choose bios and sort by height)
Though, remember, for every good short player there is also a Evgeny Artyukhin. Sure, he’s a hulking monstrosity, but that doesn’t mean he’s good at hockey.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon
D.O. on twitter: Drew Stafford has two hat tricks (in the past three games), ON SIX SHOTS.
I remember at Caps development camp in summer 2010, I was sitting in the bottom row of the bleachers, which are 2 or 3 feet above ice level…when I was sitting in the first row, Finley was still taller than me.
McPhee’s size fetish worked out rather…not well. Drafted Fehr in 03, lucked into AO-Schultz-Green in 04, Pokulok (didn’t even crack the AHL!!) and Finley in 05. Then he got over it. Two busts, two all-stars, one terrible skater who’s a real polarizing player (like Penner), and one decent scoring forward who’s a good pick in a vacuum but no so much considering the other talent available. That being said, I guess I’ll take it.
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"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.
by red army line on Feb 15, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
I had to watch Finley be a pylon for 4 years in college. Not fun.
probably the best thing he ever did was beat up Wisconsin’s mascot
Sorry, referred more to the “polarizing player” part, in the sense that he’s good but some fans think he sucks.
My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
Behindthenet quick link to QoC/QoT/Corsi/PDO/Zonestarts
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.
by red army line on Feb 16, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Artyukhin always reminded me of the tennis player Marat Safin; his sheer power could surprised you and make you always wonder what he could do if he was a bit more athletic.
I always think of Boris Valabik or Boogaard…they work great in video games, but are 6’7 pylons on the ice.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 15, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
surprise*
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 15, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
For some reason, Artyukhin was identified as THE guy to get by many of those Habs fans who felt the team had a crippling lack of size.
Which never made any sense to me. How does a guy who either spends all his time in the pressbox, or is bad enough that he should, is going to help his team in any way?
Shows how shallow the size arguments tend to be. Size is a good thing, but big or not, you need to be good enough to justify your roster spot, and merely hitting people very hard is not the only (or even the most effective!) way to use one’s size. I think too many people view the highlight-reel hit as the pinnacle of physicality, and then go and mistake physicality for defensive ability, which is how Dion Phaneuf got to be nominated for the Norris.
Artyukhin is not only big, he has ridiculous straight-away speed. Every team he’s been on, I always hear some commentator saying how he beat out the team’s ‘fastest’ player in a goal line to goal line race.
Of course that kind of speed doesn’t matter very much, plus Artyukhin tended to take a boatload of penalties and never used his teammates well. Still, it’s hard not to be impressed with the potential there, especially in light of a guy like Dustin Penner – you see him muscle his way to the net and think, ‘well if this guy got some scoring touch he’d be quite a player’.
on speed
…he has ridiculous straight-away speed. Every team he’s been on, I always hear some commentator saying how he beat out the team’s ‘fastest’ player in a goal line to goal line race. Of course that kind of speed doesn’t matter very much…
Well, it doesn’t hurt, especially if you can get up to top speed in a couple of strides. See Grabner, Michael… or rather, see the vapor trail from where he just was. But for sure, you’ve also got to have the hands to put the chances away, and being in the box all the time means that neither speed nor hands will help your team.
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A team of all 6'0" or under guys would do just find provided they were all
really good players. What matters is how good. Not how big. You don’t need diversity or balance.
I should’ve clarified: 6’0" and under from the current NHL player pool.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 15, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
I changed it now.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 15, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Could size impact a player's "adjustment" to the NHL?
I’m really not sure about any of this, but since not too long ago, Gabe was looking for a subject…
I was looking at Gabe’s juniors-to-NHL points conversion ratios and thought: now, all we need is a way to figure out which players go over that “prediction”.
We hear a lot about size in traditional media, could players over 6 ft have an easier transition to the NHL? If someone ran an analysis and found out bigger players have an easier time sustaining their junior numbers or if the opposite was true (smaller players’ skill set being easier to adapt to the NHL).
So basically, I’m not sure this belongs in this conversation as I’m just wondering if maybe size isn’t a skill but more of a variable helpful in predicting future performance before the draft.
Or was that work already done?
by Simon Lamarche on Feb 15, 2011 11:16 PM EST reply actions
The size thing could potentially go the other way too.
I know it’s a cliche, but you hear a lot of stories about players getting away with things in junior due to their size and never learning how to play when everyone else is closer to their size (or potentially bigger than). Lindros the elder had this rap. In this case, maybe odds are that bigger players will do worse when they all of a sudden have to keep their head on a swivel while smaller players are already used to playing like that?
In a lot of sports, speed is a great equalizer for smaller players.
Thinking anecdotally, I have my doubts that height eases a transition to the NHL, but muscle mass might.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 16, 2011 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
In today's NHL, what matters is...
the smell of Stephane Yelle.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 16, 2011 12:47 AM EST reply actions
…the appeal of Chris Neil.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 16, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
…the t**s of Byron Bitz.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 16, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
…the shootin’ of Fedor Tyutin.
If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Angry Dome.
Lighthouse Hockey - a beacon of greatness on the rocky coast of sports blog mediocrity
Non-hockey scribblings at nightflyblog
by mikb on Feb 16, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
…the je ne sais quoi of Patrick Roy
by Rob Vollman on Feb 17, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Now you’re just stretching it.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 17, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Was trying to find something that rhymes with power …
does “the power behind the Bauer” work better?
the powers of Mark Mowers? I think it was pronounced like “power”…
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 17, 2011 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Sub 6' Team
Z.Parise (5’11") S.Crosby (5’11’) P.Kane (5’10")
H.Zetterberg (5’10") P.Datsyuk (5’11") M.St. Louis (5’8")
R.Whitney (5’10") D.Roy (5’9") C.Giroux (5’11")
J.Jokinen (5’11") S.Koivu (5’10") D.Alfredsson (5’11")
D.Boyle (5’11") L.Visnovsky (5’10")
J-M.Liles (5’10") K.Ballard (5’11")
T.Enstrom (5’10") B.Rafalski (5’10")
T.Thomas (5’11")
J.Bernier (5’11")
Just cause I’m bored…
Not to be a wiener, but now make that team fit under the salary cap.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Feb 16, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
I feel that in a physical contact sport, a larger player with similar skill will dominate a smaller one over time. At the highest level of play with a limited number of positions available, it makes sense that you would see larger players being preferred if they have equivalent skill – an extra asset. There is an exception to be made for players like Gretzky or Crosby or maybe St Louis because they have such an advantage in ability, but there aren’t many players like that.
I think there is also a difference in the play offs when the whistles get put away. Larger players have an advantage when routes to the net disappear. And there is a real strain on the players who go far in the post season with so many games in a short span. Any one can be injured at any time, but on average I believe bigger players expend less energy in contact and absorb less impact (physics) – I think it adds up post season.
Also in the post season especially there is a benefit from checking the other team – it wears them down over 7 games. It also disrupts the other team’s game plan and system, which is critical in beating a worthy opponent. The team that wins the physical battle gains an advantage. There’s quite a difference getting hit by a player at 180lbs than a player at 210lbs or more.
There is also the fact the NHL doesn’t take protecting players seriously. The bigger the forward, the less he typically needs to be protected, and may serve to protect team-mates. The Oilers are a prime example of having to waste roster spots to protect the platoon of smaller than average NHL’ers, who do routinely get pushed around by bigger players.
And it seems bigger players score more:
http://oilersnation.com/2010/8/4/the-profile-of-a-top-30-scorer-pre-and-post-lockout
Development of American Undersized Players
For what it’s worth I did a little digging and expanded my comments on developmental pathways for undersized Americans over at Hockey Prospectus…
Benchmarcs – Size and the Development Path for American Players

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