Is there a Truly Great General Manager in the NHL?
I started bouncing this idea around in my head a while ago, and when I saw 'Moneyball', it became a lot clearer. Michael Lewis mentioned somewhere that he was worried someone would buy the rights to his book and make it not into a story about Billy Beane's genius, but rather about Billy Beane's failure. Forget that Oakland never made it to the World Series during their eight-year run at the top of the AL West - they've now had five losing seasons in a row.
There are really two explanations for Oakland's middling performance after being so good: 1) after so many years of being good, they never had the high draft picks that turn into star players; and 2) with at least half the league paying attention to player valuation, market inefficiencies are much more limited than they were in the 1990s, and no one team can consistently find 5 or 10 undervalued wins on the free talent market. Add to that deep-pocket teams like the Boston Red Sox targeting the same players Beane would have wanted, and Oakland has to make higher-risk bets (that often don't pay off) in order to win.
As far as the NHL goes, it took a few seasons, but the league has to a great extent adjusted to the salary cap. Some teams - New York and Toronto - can circumvent it, but for the most part, teams that overspend or make big free agent mistakes pay for it. So has any general manager truly "figured it out"? And by "figured it out", I mean has anyone consistently built one the top three or four teams in the league without benefiting either from his predecessor's drafting or from multiple high draft picks and without spending to the salary cap?
First, let's look at the teams that have been consistently very good for the last few years: Washington, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, Detroit, Boston, San Jose and Philadelphia. For the first three, I think the jury is still out: all three were awful teams for many years and benefited from top draft picks. Philly committed the cardinal sin of mortgaging the future to pay for goaltending (as well as offering a multi-year contract to Jody Shelley), so it would take some twisted logic to call Paul Holmgren one of the top GMs in the league.
So that leaves Vancouver, Detroit, Boston and San Jose...Let's hit them in order:
1. Vancouver was about as dominant a team last year as we're likely to see in the modern NHL. But Mike Gillis gets a lot of value from players - the Sedins, Ryan Kesler and Roberto Luongo - who he inherited from previous regimes. The Sedins and Kesler, in particular, are playing at a large discount from their true value. Gillis then spends to the cap, and the bottom 19 players on his roster aren't signed to discount contracts relative to the rest of the league. Gillis is a good GM - you need to be one to build a cup contender - but at the salary floor, the Canucks wouldn't be the best team in the league.
2. The story in Detroit is roughly the same as in Vancouver - several superstars signed to contracts at a slight hometown discount, followed up by a roster that's paid roughly its true value. Yes, yes, I know the Wings were brilliant drafters, but the operative word is "were". They've got basically nothing to show for the draft since the lockout and they've been gradually slipping in dominance over the last three seasons. I think you have to be skeptical of any claims that turning late draft picks into superstars reflects an organization's drafting ability - two-thirds of the 33 highest-paid forwards in the league were drafted in the top 6; Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk are the only ones drafted beyond the beginning of the third round.
3. Over the last three seasons, Boston has had the #1, #2 and #3 individual post-lockout save percentages from Tim Thomas and Tuukka Rask. That's a massive benefit and it means Boston was something like seven wins above average each season on goaltending alone. Is Tim Thomas, in particular, that good? Hard to say, but given that Boston was shopping Thomas for nothing after the 2009-10 season, the Bruins didn't believe think he was. The rest of the lineup is...and you've heard this before...signed at roughly their true value.
4. The Sharks have arguably been the best team in the league over the last four seasons, but they've never been the top team in any given season. Some people may discount them because they haven't reached the Stanley Cup finals, but then you'd have to discount Washington too (maybe you do?) And though their off-season acquisitions improved their team while slightly reducing salary, I don't think San Jose has discovered the secret to winning more efficiently. It has been several years since they've been a dominant possession team, and they've never quite hit the levels that Chicago or Detroit did during their Stanley Cup runs.
Don't get me wrong - I think the GMs of these four teams have done a phenomenal job building their organizations. But nobody has yet happened on the fountain of undervalued hockey players. There's a huge opportunity here for teams with salaries in the top half of the league - the top possession team in the league has been to the Stanley Cup finals in each of the last four years - and anyone who can scrounge four or five wins can almost guarantee themselves a cup win.
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Philly, Detroit, Chicago and Vancouver circumvent the cap more than Toronto does. I mean, Jeff Finger is a legitmate replacement level d-man that they stash in the minors at $3.5m a year, that’s not really circumvention (whereas Wade Redden was once an All-Star so I could see how the case could be made for NYR). But Philly, Detroit and Vancouver hand out insane long term deals that pay the players in actual dollars way more money than the annual salary cap is. Although neither of them are paying as much for their team this year as Buffalo is, which is hilarious in every respect.
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The interesting thing about those “cap circumventing contracts” is that a lot of them don’t look very good right now. They were about trading the future for the present and, well, here we are.
we knew that up front about them
They’re deals where you exchange a few years of getting to massively underpay a star for quite a lot more years of having to overpay them.
While they haven’t really been a dominant team, I think there’s a case to be made for David Poile (the Rinne contract notwithstanding). He’d probably be the closest thing the NHL has to a Billy Beane. Consistently building playoff teams on a Salary Floor budget.
by melancholyculkin on Nov 16, 2011 11:14 AM EST reply actions
Definately agree with Poile, he was the guy I felt was missing from the list. Although they’re not in the top, it took a few yers for people to realize that Nashville won’t miss the playoffs even if their team looked weak on paper.
Which also has a lot to do with a great coach in Trotz, but it’s the GM’s responsibility to hire a coach that can make his players perform. So I consider that to be a good thing. (same can be said for Detroit)
by humanindustry on Nov 16, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
There’s no secret to Poile’s success:
2001 – Hamhuis (1-12)
2003 – Suter (1-7)
2003 – Klein (2-37)
2003 – Weber (2-49)
2004 – Radulov (1-15)
2004 – Rinne (8-258)
2005 – Hornqvist (7-230)
Draft four top pairing D (including two of the top 10 D in the league) in three years, add a goalie and two forwards and your status as a first-round playoff loser is a lock. I don’t think Poile has any special talent for drafting given how poorly he’s done since the lockout. he build himself a huge lead almost 10 years ago and rode it.
I would say the jury is still out on their post-lockout drafting especially since Nashville takes it pretty slow with their prospects. Blum hasn’t played great I’ll give you that but Colin Wilson is starting to show some life this year, Craig Smith could be something, and I think over the next few years Ryan Ellis, Mattias Ekholm, Roman Josi and one or two others have the potential to be significant contributors. I don’t think any of them are Weber/Suter replacements, but they could certainly bring value.
by Corey Pronman on Nov 18, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Nashville up until this season
I think Poile has got a lot out of an artificially capped team. If he had a full budget, it would be interesting to see what he could do.
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I really don’t understand how you can make this comparison. As per Capgeek.com, San Jose’s “Cap space” for the last two years and this years projected cap space:
2009-10: $22,840
2010-11: $0
2011-12: ~$1.8 million
So, a cap team. Maybe not a “Bury $6 million in the minors” team, but a cap team. They also have the following deals where they are paying salary over cap value this season:
Thornton: Paid $8 million, cap hit $7 million
Burns: Paid $4 million, Cap Hit: $3.55 million
Last season he had Vlasic at $300,000 under cap hit and Heatley at $8 million on a $7.5 million cap hit.
So effectively, Wilson has spent at or over the cap each of the last three seasons (and I don’t have data before that). Where do you get this “artificial cap” for Wilson?
Nashville’s cap space was (or projected this year):
2009-10: $~12.6 million
2010-11: ~8.5 million
2011-12: ~$14.7 million
That’s a budget requiring your team to artificially keep your payroll below the cap.
Also I don’t see how the list of draft picks says anything about what you are measuring. Hamhuis left as a UFA before last season and Radulov left before the 2008-09 season, so none of their success last season is pinned on those assets panning out. Rinne was drafted late, as a smart GM would do with goaltenders. But they hung onto him and developed him, current contract craziness notwithstanding. Also, none of these picks are multiple top 5 type picks like the Chicago-Pittsburgh-Washington-(Edmonton?) model.
I don’t know if Poile has the secret formula, but I don’t see either of these responses as showing he doesn’t.
I’m not crazy about those long-term, NTC, $4+ million dollar deals on relatively average veterans, like J.P Dumont, Steve Sullivan, David Legwand, Martin Erat, Mike Fisher, etc. And I’m certainly not crazy about the super-risky Pekka Rinne buy-high deal.
If it weren’t for that I’d be much fonder of David Poile’s record as a GM.
I think Holland is a bit under-served here
And I’m not much of a Wings fan. They actually have a pretty strong prospect system right now, so I think the “good drafters” label will return again very soon. Tomas Tatar, Gustav Nyquist, Brendan Smith, Teemu Pulkkinen, and Tomas Jurco all look like quality finds.
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Nov 16, 2011 11:58 AM EST reply actions
I agree
The first name that came to mind was Holland
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by canadian texan on Nov 16, 2011 12:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Holland’s been around for 14 years…they won 3 cups under him
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by canadian texan on Nov 16, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
But remember, most of that advantage was attained prior to the lockout. Detroit has not been the best team in the league for several years – Holland has not kept this roster as strong as it once was.
And he had the great fortune of inheriting the best defensemen of the past 30-40 years.
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by Bruce Peter on Nov 17, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
Uhh … I could maybe see the 30 years part, but 40 years?
You heard of this guy before: http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/o/orrbo01.html
Is there a secret?
It seems like you’re criticizing GMs for having rosters that are “largely paid what they’re worth”. Is there a supply of high-quality, underpaid players that could be accessed (if it’s undrafted college free agents, Burke hasn’t found it)? Or is the NHL salary market relatively efficient, with large numbers of GMs shopping for the same small number of bargains?
I’ll admit that many GMs make inefficient decisions; but I’m not sure that there are enough inefficiencies for a “truly great general manager” to dominate the league.
I've been looking at the sky
Yes, there is a supply of underpaid players. But they represent risk. How about a guy with a bad attitude? Teams won’t touch them. Honestly, if you knew how teams decide who to sign, you’d spend the rest of the day laughing.
I don’t know the anecdotes, but every July 1-5, I spend the day laughing even without them.
by Kent Wilson on Nov 16, 2011 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I imagine it would be a sad combination of laughter and sobbing.
by SmellOfVictory on Nov 17, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
How are you defining top possession team? I don’t have the numbers in front of me but IIRC the Penguins lead the league in score-tied Fenwick last season and obviously didn’t make the Finals. Also the Sharks who you said haven’t been an elite possession team for several years were top five by that metric last season (albeit much closer to league-average the year before) and first overall in Raw Corsi.
I think adjusted for schedule Vancouver came out on top.
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by red army line on Nov 16, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks. Wouldn’t have expected that given the strength of their division. Anywhere I can find schedule-adjusted possession numbers?
JLikens was putting them up biweekly early last season.
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by red army line on Nov 16, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Dale Tallon, whose team has improved its ES/Tied Fenwick by 5 percentage points over last year?
/trollin’
by Passive Voice on Nov 16, 2011 1:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The one thing to say about Holmgren is that he was allegedly forced to sign Bryz (or equivalent) at the behest of the owners. Considering the other moves he makes, that trade really does not seem like something he’d do of his own volition.
by SmellOfVictory on Nov 17, 2011 12:48 AM EST reply actions
Clearly the Coyotes haven’t made the Stanley Cup or even had success in the Playoffs but Don Maloney has done a Billy Beane-esque job in Phoenix. He’s gotten the most out of players who were probably undervalued like, Korpikoski, Vrbata, Pyatt, Mike Smith. All while not having a real owner and having to deal with relocation issues for the past 3 seasons. He’s also been able to extend Yandle and Hanzal so even if the franchise moves they won’t be a sorry product on the ice like the Jets.
I think the lessons to take away here are:
1: I think the correlation between what hockey scouts look for in a player and what makes for good hockey are closer than the differences in baseball.
2: Sports teams of all stripes need a great deal of luck to assemble championship-caliber teams – drafting inefficiencies aren’t that great in the NHL.
3: The new salary rules actually restrict teams from becoming dominant accidentally – when players were under team control for 13 years and had basically no rights for second contracts, it made it easier to retain all of one’s talent.
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But Mike Gillis gets a lot of value from players – the Sedins, Ryan Kesler and Roberto Luongo – who he inherited from previous regimes
There’s no secret to Poile’s success: Draft four top pairing D (including two of the top 10 D in the league) in three years, add a goalie and two forwards and your status as a first-round playoff loser is a lock
If you’re gonna hold high draft picks and inherited players against a GM’s, there’s no secret to Beane’s success either:
1996 – Chavez (1-10)
1998 – Mulder (1-2)
1999 – Zito (1-9)
Giambi and Tejada pre-date Beane in the organization. Hudson was drafted when Beane was an assistant GM, a few months before Beane took the reigns, so he’s arguable.
Those 6 players account for 60% of the WAR of the 2001 team, 55% of the 2002 team, 60% of the 2003 team. He made some great moves along the margins, but if you’re going to dismiss these NHL GM’s with a broad brush, the same would certainly apply to Beane.
I’m referring to that obliquely when I wrote: “after so many years of being good, they never had the high draft picks that turn into star players.” Beane had some picks turn out really well and it no longer seems like he has a drafting touch.
At any rate, OBP Moneyball is pre-2001, right? You get Matt Stairs and Dave Magadan in 1997, 39-year-old Rickey Henderson in 1998, John Jaha, Randy Velarde and Tony Phillips in 1999. That’s 24 wins for ~$14M above minimum.
After that, the draft picks started turning out.
Um the jury is not still in on the Pens
Yes we have benefited from high draft picks, but our GM Ray Shero in the process have been able to make trade and FA signings that make this team competitive on the ice even when our superstars are hurt and create a winning formula on the ice. I think it’s highly unfair to lump us in with teams like Philly and Washington who have benefited from high draft picks but still haven’t been able to make it all come together to the win the stanley cup.
So sir, the jury is not out on us. It’s already been decided that we have a great GM. Same goes for Chicago as well.
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by Bradley James McEachern on Nov 18, 2011 8:22 AM EST reply actions
Pit is 10-10 in the playoffs since the won the cup. Philly is 18-16 in the same time period. Hard to claim that your recent results are better.
And if you draft 5, 1, 2, 1, 2…You’d better be a good team. Otherwise your GM gets fired, like in Atlanta.
Are you going on the number of wins each player roughly contributes?
Hockey Blogger at Pensburgh.com
Based on what? Neal’s possession numbers have been fantastic since coming over from Dallas and the puck has finally started going in for him this season after a stretch of abysmal luck at the start of his Penguins career. Gogo has consistently faced third-tier competition at the NHL level and while he drives the play forward in that situation it isn’t particularly difficult to find a defenseman who can contribute offensively in sheltered minutes. A winger who carries the mail to the degree that Neal does seems to be a scarcer commodity.
Based on why PIT traded for Neal. They believe the guy has “shot quality.” Seriously, that’s what drove the deal.
Well that’s stupid (and kind of funny that it would have appeared like it blew up in their face after Neal shot less than 2% after the trade last season) but regardless of their motivation I’d argue that they got the better of that deal.
by The Neutral on Nov 19, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Having those picks set you up for the next ten years, they should anyway. There aren’t many GM’s though would be able to mess up Pittsburgh considering the building blocks you gathered. You had two #1 center’s fall into your lap, a tough minute #2 center, a #1 goaltender and a #3 defensmen. Since you have been competitive your cupboard has dried up. In the next few years Pittsburgh will be forced to trade some of their better players or fill holes through UFA. All isn’t as rosey as you think in Pittsburgh.
If you think Pittsburgh won that trade by a large margin you are missing the big picture. James Neal is in for a large raise this off season. Niskanen is probably in for a small raise as well. The only substantial players you have coming off the books next season is Sullivan. Pittsburgh may be forced to trade someone this off season to make a roster for next year. Goligoski is a young first pair defensmen who should get a modest raise but is controllable.
If Goligoski is the better player, why is Neal getting a bigger raise?
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My take when talking to NHL management people is some have adopted philosophies that could make them a great GM, but then they also seem to adopt a bad one that keeps them from raising to that tier. For example I will hear a GM tell me his team likes to draft for players that controls possession, but that team also has a non Tim Thomas goalie making significant dollars.
Take a team like Detroit for example. There was a period when they got all those late round hits, and right now I think Nyquist/Tatar/Smith/Jarnkrok/Pulkkinen all have shots to be core players in the future for them who were not first rounders, but then you will see the fact they drafted a goalie Thomas McCollum in the first round back in 08 and right now he’s aspiring just to be an average AHL goalie. 2005 first rounder Kindl is likely a career 3rd pairing guy and Landon Ferraro their first pick (32nd) in 09 isn’t looking too hot. Now all teams miss when drafting, so you can excuse a Ferraro miss or Kindl being below-average, but you throw McCollum in there and it the whole picture gets a little fuzzy even considering the fact that right now their prospect system is loaded.
I could probably get a few more examples of this, but the end point is I think there is a GM who is advanced enough beyond his peers that he COULD be that great GM, but there always seems to be something holding them back which I think more or less ties into what Gabe was saying above.
I believe the MLB is far beyond the NHL. The NHL GM tends to be an old school hockey guy with a good idea of the game who has a team around him who advice him on business decisions. For the most part he makes hockey moves rather then logical moves. With MLB you have young guys who look for value in certain areas.
I believe there should be rules in place that will give you an edge on the opposition:
1.) Top end goaltenders do not have value, unless you have Tim Thomas type goaltender who can nearly guaranteed that a close series goes his way, there isn’t enough value to pay 3 or 4 million extra dollars for a possible 2 wins. This is especially true due to the fluctuation between SV% from year to year.
2.) The 4th line has potential for excellent value. If you ignore the old school though that you need grit and toughness on the 4th line, you have the possibility to have a 4th line that destroys weak competition. Ryan Shannon is an excellent example of a cheap player who Tampa stole.
3.) 3rd line is where value is lost. While I love tough minute 3rd liners I don’t like the idea of paying them 3+ million when you can have 1st line/2nd line players who achieve the same thing with more offense. If a team is build correct you won’t need that 20% zone start player.
4.) The idea of drafting guy’s who top end potential is a gritty 3rd/4th line plugger. That, to me, is a wasted pick. When in doubt, draft the undersized player with speed or the player who seems to know how to put up points without an exciting skillset. Who knows, you may hit a home run.
5.) Avoid UFA if you can, if you have a hole on your team you are better off trading to fill that hole then overspend 2 or 3 million long term.

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