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I think this is probably one of the better articles on statistics I've seen in the debate, if only because it explores both sides fairly well. I will say this, though: whatever your angle on this thing, try to avoid the assumption that hockey statisticians haven't explored the many, many potential confounding factors. If there's anything that overthrows the argument for Corsi, it's going to be shot quality (I believe the Challenge is still on, right Gabe?), not "heart" or "determination" or "enigmatic Russians." Well, maybe the Russians...

7 months ago Gary_bettman_bad_dreams_tiny Bettman's Nightmare 13 comments 0 recs  | 

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Sorry, that piece put me to sleep.

Look, we all agree that scoring goals and preventing them is all that matters in hockey. If somebody thinks ‘hustle’ matters, then come up with an experiment that makes it show up in the win column. Don’t just tell us that you know it to be true…

by Hawerchuk on Oct 14, 2011 4:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, he was responding to a piece that not only assumes hustle and work ethic and practice focus show up in the win column, but that they change often enough to present limitations to statistical models.

That’s my real objection to the original piece: it’s not enough to say “hustle affects things too”, since the effects of a person’s tendency to hustle would already be included in our stats; he has to believe that sometimes guys dramatically change their hustle from one year to the next — and that a stat focus impairs us from noting that and accounting for it.

So far in my experience, stories like “Zac Rinaldo is working hard on his offensive skill this off-season” have less predictive power than stats like “Zac Rinaldo has never scored more than ten goals in a season at any level”.

by Eric T. on Oct 14, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Re: "hustle"

Not only that, but the assumption that we know a player’s hustling, or that one player’s hustling significantly affects the game when they’re on the ice above another player…it really thrusts the argument into subjectivity. I’m sorry, I’m not going to engage speculation over whether Mike Richards had more heart than Evgeni Malkin.

Co-Manager at Arctic Ice Hockey

Want Jets historical stats, Gabe Desjardins metrics, Jets prospect scouting reports, player previews, and old school photos from the WHA days? Get your copy of the First Commemorative Maple Street Press Winnipeg Jets Annual for 2011-12 here.

by Bettman's Nightmare on Oct 14, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to this guy, Richards’ problem was a lack of heart. So there’s that.

by Eric T. on Oct 14, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t recall mentioning “hustle” in the original piece.

In any case, I think my post has been misinterpreted as anti-statistics or anti-advanced-stats. It isn’t and I’m not. I’m all for advanced stats. I’ve just seen many people take statistics as prescriptive rather than descriptive and forget that people do change over time and make different decisions over time.

The best players in the league continue to be the best players in the league from season to season because they choose to work hard in the off-season, practising parts of their game that need work, and constantly attempting to improve. Too often, changes in shooting percentage or faceoff percentage are attributed solely to luck. Of course luck plays a big part of it, but sometimes a player actually improves his shot or works on his faceoff technique.

Ryan Kesler’s shooting percentage was 8.7, 8.4, and 6.8 in his first three seasons. It’s been 11.9, 14.5, 11.7, and 15.8 in the subsequent four seasons. Is that pure luck or do we attribute that to practising his shot as he claimed to do during those off-seasons?

Maybe this is something that mainly comes into play for prospects and younger players who are experiencing more dramatic development in their games rather than older players who have a more consistent off-season regimen that simply maintains their quality of play than improving it.

I’m not interested in saying player x has more heart than player y when their on-ice performance is equivalent, that’s not my point. I’m just interested in looking at how a player’s choices affect their performance and consistency. It may have explanatory power for high-end prospects who don’t pan out.

I’m also not interested in talking about intangibles as being more important than measurable tangibles. I am interested in seeing how those intangibles have tangible effects. One player scores 20 goals in a season because he has a great wristshot even though he keeps towards the outside while in the offensive zone while another player has more “heart” or “grit” and scores 20 goals because he barges his way towards the front of the net and chops in rebounds. Say that their advanced stats are equivalent: which player would you rather have?

At that point, maybe it comes down to personal choice. One GM prefers players with skill and thinks that the first player has a higher ceiling if only he would start going harder to the net. Another GM prefers “gritty” players who aren’t afraid to get their noses dirty and thinks the second player is preferable because he might be more likely to produce in high-pressure situations in the playoffs where the defence is structured to shutdown your top-end talent.

I’m not a statistician at all, though I’ve been characterized as a stat-head in the past. The article I wrote on Backhand Shelf isn’t meant to attack advanced stats, it’s meant to introduce something different into the discussion.

Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!

by skeeter_dan on Oct 14, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Kesler

He was getting pretty irregular PT in his first three years.

The only problem I have with the idea of choice is that its highly speculative on the one end, and suggestive that nobody else is doing it at the other end. Is the difference between Tanner Glass and Steven Stamkos that Tanner Glass doesn’t work on anything, just travels? You and I both know they aren’t comparable; Stamkos was highly touted at a young age, Glass didn’t get a scholarship until he was a 19-year old playing against 16- and 17-year olds in the BCHL. So they didn’t really have a magic starting point where they displayed equal talents, but from that point forward one did so much better and the other did so much worse.

Too often, changes in shooting percentage or faceoff percentage are attributed solely to luck. Of course luck plays a big part of it, but sometimes a player actually improves his shot or works on his faceoff technique.

Whomever doing that is practicing bad statistics. It’s one thing to say that luck is a big part of it, as you say, but it’s another to say it’s all of it. And I don’t know a lot of hockey statisticians that would do that, including Gabe. Usually, the players that get mentioned by statisticians are those who have such incredible leaps in shooting percentage (Sergei Kostitsyn last year, for instance), and that such a large part of it is luck, that I’m sure they come off that way (as saying it’s all luck). But if they actually state it’s luck and nothing else, that’s bad statistics.

My point is that there are so many variables outside of the core skills that statisticians already identify, with so many different levels of influence on the thin sliver that remains after you discount skill and luck, that you can construct narratives that either don’t exist or are highly speculative. How much does a player’s mental health affect his game? How much does partying affect his game? Does he like the game anymore? Is his family life okay? Does he get along with his teammates? Is he a “leader in the locker room?” Does his coach like him? Does he have a good work ethic? Is he using the best equipment for his style of play? Does he shoot pucks in the offseason (a lot of players, good and bad, do)? Because we don’t know a large enough portion of the player population personally (in other words, what we’d need to verify these factors are at play for everyone and measure them), we don’t know and don’t pretend to know.

Co-Manager at Arctic Ice Hockey

Want Jets historical stats, Gabe Desjardins metrics, Jets prospect scouting reports, player previews, and old school photos from the WHA days? Get your copy of the First Commemorative Maple Street Press Winnipeg Jets Annual for 2011-12 here.

by Bettman's Nightmare on Oct 15, 2011 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly, I think we’re essentially on the same page on this. That article wasn’t meant to attack good statistics, just bad statistics. Apparently that wasn’t as clear as I intended.

I’m definitely not arguing that Stamkos only works on hockey and that Glass only travels. I’m just suggesting that players who are elite now had to have made a series of choices in the past that made them that way, capitalizing on innate athletic ability and financial opportunity. Players who remain elite over long periods of time are making a series of choices throughout the season and off-season to remain that way.

Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!

by skeeter_dan on Oct 16, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Put me to sleep, too

But it was peaceful.

Co-Manager at Arctic Ice Hockey

Want Jets historical stats, Gabe Desjardins metrics, Jets prospect scouting reports, player previews, and old school photos from the WHA days? Get your copy of the First Commemorative Maple Street Press Winnipeg Jets Annual for 2011-12 here.

by Bettman's Nightmare on Oct 14, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

can I ask a really stupid question?

when referring to shot quality, is that an “ability for a player to pick the corners of the net” type of thing, or is it a “team shoots a lot from in close, right in the slot, etc.” type thing

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by fetch9 on Oct 14, 2011 9:25 PM EDT reply actions  

It’s the unproven claim that some teams (nobody knows which ones) shoot from better spots on the ice, on average, than others.

by Hawerchuk on Oct 15, 2011 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

As I come from a baseball background, I have for a long time believed that hockey is a good sport for deeper statistical analysis. I have seen the positive effect that it’s had on baseball and how it’s caused some of the smarter organizations to use them, at least in the past, to get edges over other teams.

However…

One of the thing that really bothers me about many of those on the fan side who drive hockey statistical analysis is that they are completely unwilling to consider any viewpoint that does not agree with their own. If anyone dares to ask something like “Does statistical measure X really do what you say it does?” then he’s branded as a heretic. Minds are closed. On the baseball side of things measuring defense has been the most challenging statistical task and it was only by people asking “Is this REALLY the best way to look at this?” that other methods were considered. Until people at places like Behind The Net are willing to listen when people ask hard questions instead of saying “Nyah! Nyah! I don’t like you questioning what I’m doing so you are banned!” (this is NOT an exaggeration) then there is only so far that statistical analysis can go.

One of the problem with some of the new hockey stats is that there is an inherent presumption that if a coach uses a player in a particular situation and does not use him in other particular situations that the coach’s decision is infallible and we can base our stats on it. For example, if defenseman X always plays in defensive zone faceoffs then we can conclude that he is the best defensive defenseman on the team. In fact coaches do make wrong and irrational decisions and in some stats I see no way to account for that. But to bring up such points is currently considered heresy.

by Zontar on Oct 15, 2011 10:55 AM EDT reply actions  

That was very reductive

And the last paragraph was simply not true. I suppose I should also say “Nyah Nyah.”

Co-Manager at Arctic Ice Hockey

Want Jets historical stats, Gabe Desjardins metrics, Jets prospect scouting reports, player previews, and old school photos from the WHA days? Get your copy of the First Commemorative Maple Street Press Winnipeg Jets Annual for 2011-12 here.

by Bettman's Nightmare on Oct 15, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The statistics community is used to hearing fallacious arguments from all sides about how hockey doesn’t translate to statistical analysis, how they don’t capture intangibles, about how a shot from center ice is counted the same as a shot from right up close!!!11 and all of the half-hearted, demi-brained criticisms that people come up with. It’s only natural that the community is a little defensive.

That said, when you say ‘completely unwilling to consider any viewpoint’, ‘minds are closed’, ‘to bring up such points is considered heresy’ – I suspect it is you being part of the problem with such a strident tone. The stats community as I know it is far from perfect, but there’s certainly room for debate once you get past the ‘lol ur wrong stats r dum’ people.

As to the article, I’m glad the author mentioned that he attended grad school, as if it weren’t obvious from the first two sentences.

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by Triumph44 on Oct 15, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

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