The League of Extraordinary Statisticians: The Great Debate
The League of Extraordinary Statisticians (LOES) is a weekly forum bringing together the top analytical minds in the hockey world to answer a variety of questions that straddle the line between stats analysis and something you might hear floating around section 304. They have agreed to answer these questions in a few paragraphs or less, and with minimal formulae. Because this is a forum, we'd encourage you to use the comments section to answer the questions yourselves, or to discuss or debate the answers given.
The LOES is not meant to represent the entire of the hockey stats community. There are a number of people that either were too busy or too difficult to contact for the purposes of the forum.
Talk about a potentially taxing topic...if you were to think about the greatest teams in NHL history, you would likely think about the amazing offense of the Oilers dynasty, or the astonishing combinations of offense and defense in the Canadiens dynasties of the 1950s and 1970s, as well as the Islanders of the early 1980s and the Red Wings of the late 1990s and early 2000s. This kind of recognition identifies "offense" as goals, "defense" as preventing goals, ultimately expressed in winning in the regular and playoff seasons. Posing a question to the LOES like I'm about to do, concerning whether the offensive element is more or less (or equally) important than the defensive element, will not necessarily result in those definitions being taken for granted, nor should it. Instead, it requires that we look a little deeper at what makes both offense and defense, and whether those things might even be separable. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't...
This week's question: What is more essential for a successful NHL team, a "good offense" or a "good defense"? Why?
Fair warning: in the hockey metrics world, this is a weightier question than it appears in the responses. The answers are the result of a lot of studies on value, talent, etc.
Definitely good defense. Generally speaking, good defensive teams consistently make the playoffs relative to good offensive teams, and there's a very good reason for that.
Assuming a good defensive team and good offensive team have an equal chance of winning a game, why would there be an advantage of being a good defensive team? Because there's a better chance of a low-scoring game going to an OT/shoot-out than a high scoring game. In OT/shoot-out you get points for losing.
The ultimate defensive team would go to an OT/shoot-out every single game, and get 123 points on average, since OT/shoot-out is essentially a coin toss.
Also, teams aren't very good at rating defense, making it far easier to get good defensive players than good offensive ones.- Rob Vollman, Hockey Prospectus
A goal saved is a goal earned. What is essential is talent, and it doesn't matter how it's split up between offense and defense.
- Tom Tango, tangotiger.net and author of The Book: Playing the Percentages in Baseball
From a team-building point of view, a good offense. A lot has been written in sabermetric circles about the variability of goaltending, but good defense in general is very transitory, in hockey as in many other sports. Case in point: last season, New Jersey and Buffalo were first and fourth in goals against per game. This season, they're 24th and 21st. This isn't to say that you might not be able to buy improvements to defense for less, though.
- Timo Seppa, Hockey Prospectus
Generally speaking, unless you're special, offense is everything in hockey. No team will be successful trying to defend in their own zone. The only safe hockey is played in the other team's zone. For the most part, the teams that won the Stanley Cup did so because they were good at scoring goals. However, team defense/structure can differentiate an average team from a good team (you still require a competent goaltender as well).
- Chris Boersma, Hockey Numbers
I don't think I can write much for this question except to say that offence and defence are equally important. Hockey is a game of outscoring your opponent. This comes from preventing your opponent from scoring as much as it does from scoring your own goals. There is no reason to break symmetry between the two.
Some people make statements that offence wins games and defence wins championships, but they are not backed up by facts. The Gretzky Oilers won championships and the Lemieux Penguins won championships. The Langway Washington Capitals and the modern days Boston Bruins haven't.
There just is no answer to this question. Both are equal and that is the nature of the game.- Greg Ballentine, The Puck Stops Here at Kukla's Korner
The numbers, of course, say that it doesn't matter either way. But if you were building a team, you want a "good defense" that has shot suppression abilities. It's cheaper to buy defensive skills because
of the over-emphasis on counting stats in the free agent market. And in the playoffs, unless I had a dominant team, I'd prefer to play low-event games rather than high-event ones because it increases the
role of the luck in winning. None of this considers team revenue and attendance, of course. What may be optimal for a GM or coach may not be optimal for the organization.- Gabe Desjardins, behindthenet.ca and, of course, Behind the Net
In other words, the answers are all over the board. You will notice that offense and defense, in some cases, are still held as extricable concepts, as Corsi numbers and goal-differentials which are currently used by many hockey statisticians are presented as shots-for/shots-against and goals-for/goals-against, with either side representing offense and defense. The format of the hockey rink lends to this a bit too, as in one zone you are simply far more likely to be trying to create offense and another far more likely to be trying to prevent offense than you are the other way around, and the extreme zones are bound by rules and strategies to concentrate play in either end.
Honestly, I think each answer kind of stands on its own as an interesting statement on the question. Rob points out the value in the current NHL point system of playing to the guaranteed points, a strategy that can get you into the playoffs. Gabe has noted a similar phenomenon in the value of playing to the tie. Tom's noting that, really, any combination of the two can succeed if the overall talent is sufficient to win games; a Sabres team with zero offense came within two wins of a Stanley Cup in 1999, the Oilers teams of the 1980s had marginal defense but world-beating offense, and I mentioned some of the dynasties above that had a pretty decent balance of both. Timo takes the team-building perspective, and what this approach notes (as Rob had also noted) is that defense can be assembled for less; in Timo's case, this means that emphasis can and should be placed on the offense, as it will be the talent level of the offense which will set a team apart beyond the "transitory" environment of NHL defenses. Chris alludes to the advantage of a strong offense, that it reduces time spent in one's own zone, with the contention that a focus on defending well does not produce offense itself, which is necessary to win the game. Greg says that there's no point in pulling the two apart, that they are both essential and you can look across the breadth of Stanley Cup winners and see that.
One of the more interesting metrics in recent memory, PDO (shooting % plus save %) by Vic Ferrari, brings together two of those key elements of offense and defense; interestingly, it pulls strongly towards 1000 league-wide, and among your truly sensational teams you have very strong defenses just as frequently (if not more frequently) as you do strong offenses.
For discussion, I'd like to build a little on Gabe and Rob's points, and ask a question on the distribution of talent: assuming that the distribution of defensive talent holds over a number of years, would an emphasis on defense truly set a team apart so as to make the sacrifices on offense worthwhile? In today's league, can hockey games be consistently and deliberately made into battles of attrition as they were in the Dead Puck Era (Gabe's noted playing to the tie, but what about an entire game)? On the flip side, how much is too much of a sacrifice on defense? As we come away from a summer where the goaltending market depressed, the defensive forward market depressed slightly, and the defensive defenseman market at least held (if not went up), are we moving closer to an idea of the minimum defense needed for a winner?
Have at it in the comments.
P.S. And they certainly have. Be sure to check out the comments below; there are a lot of good ones worth thinking about.
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Depends on how one defines “defense”, but I’m not sure if the dichotomy is a real one at even strength.
If it’s defines preventing scoring chances and goals against, then I’d propose that offense and defense are not very much different at all, so deeply are they intertwined. The best way to prevent scoring chances against is the same as the best way to generate offense: by keeping the puck on your guy’s stick in the offensive end. Teams that have a strong puck control game tend to be very strong at both ends of
If defense is defined as strictly in-zone coverage, then I think offense is preferable, because offense is also going to lead to fewer goals against because of puck possession. In-zone coverage remains a critical skill, and a fairly cheap one at that, but ultimately, tilting the ice leads to winning games, and the “tilting the ice” paradigm doesn’t readily differentiate between offense and defense.
If one defines “offense” as high-event (and/or exciting), and “defense” as low-event (and/or boring), as is the wont when discussing coaching/team styles… then I’d say the definitions are whacked. The ideal team is exciting in the offensive zone and boring in the defensive zone.
To me, it depends on how one defines “successful”. If the goal is to qualify for the playoffs, then defense is the way to go. As Vollman points out, it’s a consistent way to pile up points.
But if you want to win the Stanley Cup, then I’m with Boersma: offense is what differentiates between otherwise good teams. By the second round, virtually every team remaining is strong defensively and the only way to win is to have better scoring ability, and this key factor only becomes more important as the team progresses through the playoffs.
As my anecdote, I’ll take the 1989 Stanley Cup final, a meeting between the league’s top two defensive teams that season (also the top two teams overall). Calgary’s offense (+0.5 GF/G during the season) is what made them champions.
I've been looking at the sky
Offense. Since it’s easier and cheaper to find defensive talent, wouldn’t it be worthwhile to build your team from the offense out (that, and offense/puck possession is the best defense). That is, if building = drafting. If building = signing free agents, then I think it’s best to construct a solid D corps, draft some offensive talent, and let them develop (offense matures faster, and optimally I guess your D is in late 20s and early 30s when offense is in early to mid 20s.
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No, but it’s more valuable to have cheap offense than cheap defense, then, right? Since you can’t get cheap offense from FA like you can defense.
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"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
by red army line on Jan 19, 2011 5:52 AM EST up reply actions
Yes - but the question was just 'what is more essential for a good NHL team?'. For team building you're right
but that doesn’t imply that a team with a good offense and an average defense is better than a team with a good defense and an average offense. Offense is harder to find though so I agree with your team building strategy. If you go for D first you’ll end up with a below average offense in all likelihood. The opposite is probably not true.
I agree with Gabe and Rob. Quality defence is cheaper then quality offence, and an integral part of good defence is being able to keep the puck out of your own zone. Less time in your zone generally means more time in the opponents. I would assume a goaltender is covered under “defence”, correct? Most people in here would take Crosby or Datsyuk over Ovechkin or Stamkos based on the way they can shut down the best players while still being able to put up points.
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by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2011 10:26 AM EST reply actions
Depending on how broad you think of the term “successful NHL team” I would think offense would be the way to go. Everything else equal, I would expect a team that gets X points scoring 3.25 goals a game is going to sell more tickets than another team also getting X points and scoring only 2.75 goals a game. For the teams that operate well below the salary cap, selling those extra tickets can help provide the finances to firm up the rest of your team.
I believe the most important thing to attendance is just winning in the first place, but after that, which seems to be what we’re talking about, I would expect offense to have a greater impcat.
I tend to agree with Chris Boersma’s view of offense being the best defense. By building around quality offensive players a team keeps the risk in their own zone down. That said, I’m thinking of offense in the possession sort of way rather than goals scored.
Defense is definitely cheaper but just doesn’t appear to be as repeatable.
Regardless, the debate in hockey is not the same as in a sport like football where the two halves of the squad are different players.
Ryan
Matchsticks & Gasoline, Sports Opinionated, & Hockey Prospectus. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated
What’s great about this one is, if you look at the comments above, we have a similar variety of answers as we were seeing in the post. Just to answer all the questions of what “success” is, I think coaches, GMs, and players can make grand statements about how their only goal is to win the Cup, but we know that the best team doesn’t always win the Cup. So I think making the playoffs is the better barometer of a successful team, as it is rare that a legitimately good team will play poorly enough across 82 games to miss the playoffs. That, and getting to the playoffs over and over again tells you more about the quality of the team than, say, making the playoffs every other year and having at least one run to a Stanley Cup in those playoff seasons.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Jan 18, 2011 11:38 AM EST reply actions
P.S. I think I have to stop including joke choices in the poll. Glen Sather has too many SBN accounts.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Jan 18, 2011 11:39 AM EST reply actions
Joke choice?
San Jose management evidently decided that more “Boogaard” was their missing ingredient.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jan 18, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I saw that. Though, to be fair, Eager isn’t nearly the travesty with the puck that Boogaard is.
I’m sure the reason the Sharks have had some difficulty with their offense/defense is because they don’t get enough minor penalties…
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Jan 18, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
he's lucky in a last name, anyway
If he was named Ben Indifferent or Ben Casual, would he have the same reputation and career?
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Or Trippin’?
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Jan 18, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
Considered saying it, left it to oblivion. Or Adam, haha.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Jan 19, 2011 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
I’ve never seen any studies on this and had a few debates with friends about the topic, so I’m curious what you mean when you state depth is the essential factor.
My current thinking is that depth is essential for making the playoffs, but a lack of depth may actually be better for winning the cup.
I’m basically translating depth in to a lack of volatility in performance (at its most basic example, if you have depth, it doesn’t matter if your best player is injured or not, you play similarly well). So, follow me through this thought experiment … we’ll start with two teams expected to end up with 100 points, Team D with depth and Team U that lacks depth (unmanned).
With Team D’s depth, you’d know that they’d likely always end up close to 100 points, even as things start to go wrong (injuries, etc.). At the same time, as their expected result is 100 points, they’d only slightly exceed 100 points if everything broke well.
Conversely, for Team U, if things go wrong, they’d go extremely bad, and they’d end up much lower than 100 points. In order to still have an expected performance of 100 points however, when things break right, this team would end up with a lot more than 100 points.
(Much, lot, slightly, etc. all being relative between Team D and Team U).
Now, to make the playoffs, having a 100 point team pretty much guarantees that you’d make the playoffs, so Team D would more frequently make the playoffs and be the best choice if that’s your goal.
Now to playoff time … .
We can assume that the team that wins the Cup generally has a lot of things break right for them over a short period of time. When things break right for a team, team U outperforms Team D, so, once making the playoffs, Team U seems to be more likely to win the Cup.
Incidentally, if you think that high draft picks are the best way to build a team, Team U also has a better chance of getting high draft picks. So Team U performs better if things go well, and if they perform poorly, Team U has a better chance of them going really wrong and getting a better pick.
That’s all thought experiment and of course assumes that an expected 100 point team built with depth costs the same as an expected 100 point team that has no depth, but I’m curious how you’re opinion lines up / differs with the above (and if the above even makes sense).
slightly disagree
I think you also have to account for the talent disparity among players. Losing a top player is always going to hurt, long-term. If the injury is brief you can hope that an uptick in performance (or a little luck) will make up the difference… but if there are only (say) 20 or 30 elite players in the league, the chances that you will be able to effectively replace your own (should you be lucky enough to have one) goes down the longer he’s out. The ’93 Isles got along without Pierre Turgeon against Pittsburgh… to have expected them to get through two more playoff rounds like that would have been optimistic.
Where depth helps most, I think, is when the supporting guys get hurt. It’s a lot more likely to luck into an AHL guy who can give you effective minutes in the role of a key faceoff man, or a effective penalty-killer, or a surprise offensive threat on the bottom two lines. It’s also more likely to find a good second-liner already on your team, languishing lower down until an injury opens up the opportunity. It’s much less likely to find a superstar-in-waiting that you had completely overlooked up until now.
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I think we’re looking at it differently than each other. I was thinking of depth in terms of the 4 very good guys versus 2 super stars type of depth. There is a trade-off there that teams must make as far as salary cap goes and I think the 2 super stars approach would be more likely to lead to a Cup, but less likely to make the playoffs.
There is not as direct of a trade-off in AHL depth. That’s one of those things that teams are generally always trying to improve. Obviously, they can act as trade chips, so at some sense, AHL depth is a trade-off for NHL talent, but not as clearly as the way outlined above.
I believe A. Ryder breaks it down this way:
45% Offense 40% defense 15% Goaltending. This seems to be the most accurate
I have seen. Another approach would be to take the average salaries of all
players and divide by the cap.For example, if the average salary of goaltending is 7.5 million with a 60 million cap this would imply managers attribute 15% to goaltending.
Longitudinal studies I have done show that offense has always been slightly more important to winning the Stanley Cup. Gabe is correct if a teams goal is to win one or two playoff series. (i.e. Montreal with a tight system and hot goalie increasing chances of luck). However, to win the cup , especially with the new rule changes, Offense is imperative -as 24 games (the average a winning team plays) reduces the impact of luck substantially and as Canuck Oilers Flames and early Duck fans know winning game 7 as a visitor (given 11% home ice advantage and with a ‘lesser team’ is difficult!
No word from Ryder on the percentage Boogaard?
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
Co-Manager at Behind the Net
by Bettman's Nightmare on Jan 18, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Hi all.
My instinct would suggest that offense is more important because it is more difficult to replace – especially in a cap world. There are lots of guys in the NHL, AHL and other leagues that could fill the role of a defensive-minded third or fourth line forward, or third-pairing D, in the NHL if provided the opportunity. There are fewer players that could score 20-25 goals if given the chance. In other words, there is a greater supply of defence and as a result it comes at a lower cost.
Though I don’t have the stats to back it up, I imagine that the distributions of offensive talent and defensive talent across professional hockey leagues (including the AHL, European leagues, and anywhere else a GM could draw from) would look quite different. There would be fewer very good and elite scorers than there would be very good and elite defensive players. Very good and elite scorers would be more difficult to replace in the medium-term because substitutes are more scarce – and given the cap considerations – nearly impossible to replace in the short term. Assuming very good defensive forwards are cheaper and more readily available (and I believe that is the case… at least it was years ago), they would be easier to replace.
Okay, now Boogaard has more votes than “offense” or “defense”…cripes.
Does he call it Luongo underwear?
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Jan 19, 2011 11:52 AM EST reply actions
You can’t measure the effect of a fight on a game. You can’t measure the effect is has on a team. In the 5 mins Boogaard might play he’ll energize his team and turn the tide of the game.
I know it’s true, because it’s true.
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by red army line on Jan 19, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
…so said Glen Sather as he inked Booger to a 4-year, $6.5 million dollar contract.
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by Bettman's Nightmare on Jan 19, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Offense First
Offense prevails. Virtually every team that has approached dynasty (though that term seems not only archaic but frequently abused) has won on the strength of its offensive players. Very few teams that I can think of (excepting the New Jersey Devils of the 1990’s) have won on defensive talent and/or goaltending alone. The last team to strike a balance between offensive and defensive greatness, while winning multiple Cups, would be the 1970’s Canadiens, and even those teams were dominated by the forwards. If we take that dynasty as the archetype of balance, we still must concede that offense dominates because no serious fan would debate the significance of Larry Robinson versus, say, Guy Lafleur. (Though Robinson was undoubtedly a great player.)
As for talent across leagues and positions, historically, Europe produced more skilled forwards and certianly the Canadians and Americans have dominated among defense-first players. Niklas Lidstrom seems an anomaly rather than the rule. That is not surprising, however, because the North American game has tended to emphasize the physical aspects of play, while the Europeans have tended to be slighlty more cerebral and offensive-minded.

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